DoD adopts 300PRC



  • Well that’s probablt good news for an infant cartridge.

    https://www.tactical-life.com/news/department-of-defense-hornady-300-prc/

    Updated: In an email to Tactical-Life, Hornady confirmed the report on the DoD’s decision: “The 300 Precision Rifle Cartridge (PRC), released by Hornady earlier this year, was tested and selected by the Department of Defense for its extended long range sniper program following a rigorous evaluation process that saw the new Hornady 300 PRC outperform the 300 Norma Mag as well as several other cartridges in testing past 2,000 yards.”



  • @rhyno said in DoD adopts 300PRC:

    that saw the new Hornady 300 PRC outperform the 300 Norma Mag

    I just don't see how this can really be true. Perhaps with the loaded ammo they had in front of them... but I can't see this being reality.

    The 300PRC is basically a 300Win Mag replacement. Seems to be a lot of potential benefit to the cartridge, especially for wildcatters looking to neck it down. I can't see it having the capacity to compete with the norma mag however. The norma can launch a 230gr berger at 2950 comfortably from a 26" barrel. ... and I mean very comfortably. If you want to push a bit, 3050 is generally achievable. A 225gr at 2800fps, which is what SAAMI spec for the 300PRC as well as hornady's marketing machine claim... might be a touch low but it's not 150fps low.

    I could create a test that would throw the results in whatever direction I want by dictating the configuration of the ammo used. In that way, I could create a 308win load that would stomp a 6 dasher at 1000yds... if I cripple the dasher enough with sub-par components.

    The 7mm LRM that I've been shooting for years is based on the same parent case the 300PRC is based on... the 375 Ruger. If I can't launch a 180gr hybrid out of the 7LRM in a 26" barrel at more than 2950-3000 using hornady's brass... then there's no way someone is launching a 230gr berger 30cal hybrid at anywhere near those velocities in that same case. That's with a stout 71-72gr charge of H1000. Compare that to the roughly 86gr charge of Retumbo seen in a 300 Norma... and I just don't see the 300PRC being able to come any closer than 100fps of the Norma. Even that would be a stretch.

    I think this 300PRC cartridge brings a much needed modern twist to the 300 win mag... but over-hyped marketing will do significantly more harm than good. With Lapua delivering on 300 Norma brass... you can damn well bet I'm not going to drop the 300 Norma-based cartridges I'm shooting in favor of something slower with worse brass. The obvious benefit here is 300 win mag performance without a belted case which can be hand in a standard magnum bolt face long action. Yet, with me shooting all my big boomers in the Desert Tech platform... action size is of zero concern. Even still, if I wanted a traditional build, Lone Peak has a 338 fuzion which will run the norma just fine.

    So in closing, it's all good that new things are being re-invented. (it isn't like the 30-375R is a new idea)... but to take the approach that this somehow renders the 300 Norma obsolete, is very likely to result in some very disappointed people.



  • I spoke to an engineer with a case manufacturing company who was familiar with the DOD testing on the 300 Norma Mag. Without getting into names, the 300Norma was being tested with Berger bullets which tend to be very Jump sensitive which was not ideal for mass produced ammo and firearms. If you hand loaded the Bergers, the results would be different.

    The reason I spoke to the engineer was that I was wondering if his company was going to manufacture 300 Norma Mag brass as Lapua's release of that case has been delayed yet again to late Qtr 1 2019.

    Orkan if you want the contact info for the engineer, IM me.



  • @orkan I was curious about that myself. I wonder if other factors led to the decision as martinos post might suggest.



  • @rhyno
    There was more to the discussion, however I didn't want to relate more details on the outside chance it could Id him as the source and negatively affect him and his company.



  • @martino1 said in DoD adopts 300PRC:

    Berger bullets which tend to be very Jump sensitive

    They aren't all jump sensitive. If any attention at all is paid to throat length... rifles can be setup to be quite forgiving when using bergers.



  • Another thing... I have a picture somewhere of a customer of mine that fired a 5 shot group at 1800yds with his 30" 300 norma pushing 230gr bergers at about 3150fps, and you could cover those 5 shots with your hand. The 300 Norma with berger 230's has a recent history (at least the past 5+ years) of being a very capable and very forgiving ELR combination.

    ... as I said, anyone that buys a 300PRC thinking it's going to be a 300 norma slayer is likely to be very disappointed.



  • That’s good information to know.

    I wasn’t trying to misinform people or compare the two cartriges I just copied that paragraph from the article.



  • @orkan said in DoD adopts 300PRC:

    Another thing... I have a picture somewhere of a customer of mine that fired a 5 shot group at 1800yds with his 30" 300 norma pushing 230gr bergers at about 3150fps, and you could cover those 5 shots with your hand. The 300 Norma with berger 230's has a recent history (at least the past 5+ years) of being a very capable and very forgiving ELR combination.

    ... as I said, anyone that buys a 300PRC thinking it's going to be a 300 norma slayer is likely to be very disappointed.

    Were those shots made with a mass produced rifle using mass produced ammo? The point I believe the guy was making is that Berger would perform well in a hand loading environment. His opinion was that 300 Norma may have had better results if other bullets were considered that were forgiving when used in mass produced rifles.



  • @martino1

    All guns will preform better with hand loads. Was the 300 PRC running hand loads during the test?

    I can’t see the PRC out preforming the Norma ballistically. There is bound to be some other reasons for the PRC to have been chosen



  • @martino1 So if he thinks it would perform well in a "handloading environment," then he thinks it doesn't in a "mass produced" environment. ABM/Berger ammo has shot amazingly well in everything I've ever used it in, custom rifle or not.

    Does a bone stock remington 700 qualify as a "mass produced" rifle to you? How about an AI AX? How about Sako TRG? I've fired some ABM as well as other factory loadings with berger bullets in many cartridges and many rifles. ALL, and I mean all of it shot as good as any factory ammo can be expected to shoot in factory rifles.

    So this inference you are making, after hearing the inference from someone else... in which Berger bullets aren't good in a "mass produced" setting, has no supporting facts what so ever. This smacks of someone who's only experience with berger is their old traditional VLD designs, which were known to be sensitive to seating depth. The new hybrids and classic hunters are not even close to the same, and anyone who has spent ANY time at all with them knows this is true.

    https://www.federalpremium.com/products/rifle/gold-medal/gold-medal-berger

    You think federal is making products that aren't targeted at the "mass market?" Federal doesn't just put the "gold medal" label on shit that doesn't work well in just about every rifle made which doesn't need a gunsmiths attention.

    @martino1 said in DoD adopts 300PRC:

    His opinion was that 300 Norma may have had better results if other bullets were considered that were forgiving when used in mass produced rifles.

    That's a blame you can lay anywhere you like. Right at the feet of the barrel manufacturer or rifle manufacturer perhaps? Right at the feet of the person conducting the testing? If someone is running a test, and they proclaim one cartridge the winner over another cartridge without testing a bunch of different bullets... then that person shouldn't be running a test. Berger does make bullets that are forgiving... just not certain bullets. This is not specific to berger. EVERY bullet manufacturer has bullets that are often finicky.

    Why is no one talking about the RIFLE part of the equation? Or the person doing the testing? Or the testing methodology? I'd love to see a truly impartial test by a qualified and uninterested third party take a Barrett, a Sako TRG, and an AI all chambered in 300 Norma, and then compared against same rifles in 300PRC and have them all tested against each other for velocity (ballistic performance) and accuracy.

    Two huge myths being perpetuated:
    Myth 1 - The 300PRC is ballistically superior to or even equal to a 300 Norma Mag.
    Myth 2 - Berger bullets require custom rifles and handloading to perform well.

    Both are false and easily proven false by anyone with even the tiniest bit of experience. Reported case capacity of the 300PRC is approximately a couple grains larger than the 300 win mag. So how many rifles did they test? How many different bullets? Answer - Not enough. ... because if you can run an ACTUAL test and compare all aspects of performance between a 300 Win mag and a 300 norma... in no world does the 300 win mag come out ahead. The concept that a new cartridge with nearly identical shape, nearly identical volume, nearly identical load data as the 300 win mag will some how then out perform the 300 norma is pure lunacy.

    I'll tell you why I care about any of this: Every time some retarded agency or government entity makes a choice and publicizes that choice, the idiotic public thinks that's proof positive of the choices they made being technically sound and correct. Anyone that has had ANY dealings with the government or were ever in the military knows this is a completely false premise. Despite this, people read an article like that, and other articles claiming similar nonsense, and come away thinking the 300 PRC is ballistically superior to the 300 Norma. Then they'll go spend thousands of dollars on rifles, optics, and ammo... only to find out its NOT launching bullets anywhere near as fast as the 300 norma. To claim one or the other is more "accurate" as a function of the cartridge is a fools errand as well, as both the 300 win mag and the 300 norma have proven to be extremely forgiving cartridges with wide accuracy nodes when configured properly and fired in a quality rifle. Contracts aren't put together by uninterested parties looking for the actual science of it all. They are put together by people whom often have preconceived ideas and set the testing up to validate those ideas and the plans around them. Big money on the line, and they won't leave that kind of choice up to the pure science of it.

    ... but just in case there are some hold outs that just NEED military approval, I'll see your fucking DoD and raise you a SOCOM. As if that means anything at all.

    https://www.wideopenspaces.com/ever-heard-of-the-300-norma-mag-well-its-the-new-socom-sniper-cartridge/

    Here's a graphic below that will illustrate my point. On the left is a 230gr berger hybrid going 2950fps, which is a mild pooch of a load in a 300 norma. Then in the middle is that same bullet going 2800fps, the reported velocity expectation of the 300PRC, and typical of what you'd expect out of a warm load in a 300 Win mag. Then on the right you see that same bullet going 3100fps which is what the norma can pretty regularly be counted on to do.

    LGoEuFmh.jpg

    So lets dispense with the bullshit, shall we? The 300 PRC shouldn't, and doesn't have to be going after the 300 Norma Mag to be relevant. The 300 PRC is SUPER exciting and relevant because it replaces the 300 win mag by getting a marginal performance boost and losing the belt! ... but I guess that's not exciting or edgy enough for the ignorant masses in this country.

    The 300 PRC is going to be a great cartridge, and I'll be recommending it to anyone that is looking for 300 win mag type performance in a 30 cal. Yet the concept that this new cartridge is going to replace the 300 norma is for uninformed fools only. Just as the concept that berger bullets aren't going to shoot well unless used in custom rifles with handloads is for fools only. Anyone that can't see through the ridiculous marketing strategy being deployed around all this is truly green, and aught to get themselves some actual experience before putting their foot in their mouth. I'll be getting a barrel chambered up in 300 PRC just so I can do the testing myself, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at the published data for the 300PRC and compare it to the widely known and distributed data available for the 300 norma and see that the two cartridges are quite far apart.

    ... and for the record, lots of berger bullets shoot great in all kinds of factory rifles. People claiming otherwise should get some experience before they get a visit from bergers legal team.



  • Well this conversation took a turn I didn’t expect but probably should have, I just thought the news was interesting, and generally good news for a new cartridge.

    I personally don’t put any faith into any government testing so I didn’t even think about that side of it much, I read that last part about the 300 Norma, and thought “well I doubt that” did a quick look at velocity and confirmed it, then forgot about it.



  • @rhyno said in DoD adopts 300PRC:

    I just thought the news was interesting, and generally good news for a new cartridge.

    I think it's good that they got themselves a contract. I'm glad you posted it. It will help them launching into full production hugely, I imagine.



  • Interesting read with a lot of good information. Just happen to see an article that Barett is producing the MRAD in 300 PRC for military contracts.
    https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/12/3/barrett-firearms-new-dod-contracts-include-mrads-in-300-prc/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=insider&utm_campaign=1218

    Greg the following is why you are my go to guy when needing information on calibers and when adding to my DT platform.

    "I'll be getting a barrel chambered up in 300 PRC just so I can do the testing myself"