Trouble shooting flyers
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Fine tuning the load for my 6mmBR after the first firing on the brass and ran into a issue with one flyer in every group. I did not have this issue one the first firing of the brass. It’s not what I’d call random either. Every single 5 round group form every powder charge has one round land slightly low and opens the groups up to roughly .5 moa. I’ve not seen this before and before I started trouble shooting I figured I’d check and see if anyone here had any ideas.
This is actually 5 rounds in one hole, after the flyer I loaded another up and shot one more as this is the smallest group I think I’ve ever fired. It measured .061 for five rounds excluding the flyer.
This one the flyer went left instead of low and not quite as far outbthe group.
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I've seen this a fair number of times. Usually you're just right on the very razor edge of a node, rather than in the middle of it. Normally you can overcome it with seating depth. If not that, then a bit more, or a bit less powder.
If it's not either of those two... then you're going to have a tough go of it. It could be variations in bullets. It could be bed job in the rifle. It could be your scope. It could be the ignition in your action. It could be primer seating depth or related issues. It could be... it could be... it could be... yeah, have fun.
It could just be you. Your group POI is wondering around a fair margin in relation to your POA. It's not unreasonable to have shooters introduce some error in a 5 shot string. The technique from shot to shot must be locked down to the finest degree to shoot sub 1/4 for 5 shots and be centered on POA.
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@orkan
These are all different powder charges and cover 1 full grain. That would explain the wondering of POI. I’ll play around with the seating depth and see if I can eliminate the flyer. You think it’s could still be node issue over that big of a charge range?
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@bull81 said in Trouble shooting flyers:
You think it’s could still be node issue over that big of a charge range?
If seating depth hasn't been eliminated as a variable... then yes, absolutely.
I was having this exact issue with my 6BR when loading up the light 55gr noslers. Shoved it back in there a significant amount, and it tightened right up.
Were I you, I'd start pushing that bullet back in there a bit. Take it .020 to .030 deeper at a time and see what happens. Push about .150 or so total if you have the room... just to ensure you're getting a solid swing.
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@orkan
Thanks fella, I’ll seat some deeper and run a OSD test next and see what it does.
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I tried adjusting the seating depth in .020 increments down to .130 jump. Nothing really changed still ended up with 1 flyer for each group. What I did notice is the rifle won’t feed reliably from .110-.130 jump.
I tried a different powder as well and ended up with the same results 1 flyer per group and the flyer opens each group up to almost exactly .5 moa. I did not have this issue during the first firing, but all the loads for the first firing were shot using my ATACR, I got a good deal on a Nightforce Competition 15-55 recently and my next match is a Fclass match so I mounted it on the rifle. I’m gonna pull it off and put the ATACR back on and see if it’s something with the optic causing this flyer issue.
@orkan ive never done a seating depth test quite like you recommend until now I usually work with much smaller increments, and I have a few questions.
First off let me be clear I’m in no way arguing with your method in anyway or disputing it’s validity.
When I made the large .020 increment jumps in seating depths, it made pretty drastic changes in my velocity (about 40 fps) across the full range. I do an OCW test across a Labradar and look at the ES/SD as well as the impact points of each load. Most of the time the velocity flat spots and the impact points will both correspond with each other. To me it’s double checking the results against each other. What I noticed a side from the change in velocity was the ES and SD’s got much worse as well, which makes sense to me due to the large velocity change. If you do a full OCW test including a fine OCW to find your node, then make drastic adjustments in seating depth changing the velocity by a fairly large margin doesn’t that throw you out of the node you worked so hard to find with the OCW?
I know this method works extremely well for you, I am just trying to understand what I’m missing.
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@bull81 said in Trouble shooting flyers:
I tried adjusting the seating depth in .020 increments down to .130 jump. Nothing really changed still ended up with 1 flyer for each group.
@bull81 said in Trouble shooting flyers:
If you do a full OCW test including a fine OCW to find your node, then make drastic adjustments in seating depth changing the velocity by a fairly large margin doesn’t that throw you out of the node you worked so hard to find with the OCW?
We aren't doing load development. We're doing troubleshooting. Big difference my friend. The big swing of seating depth adjustments is designed to identify if seating depth is the "problem" or not. Do it, and do it quickly. Now you know it's not seating depth... don't you? Those 20-30 thousandth steps are quite helpful at initial seating depth adjustment as well. Just because you THINK you have the load all locked down before doing seating depth adjustment... doesn't mean you do. During that big swing I'll often run into a better node somewhere else entirely than where I wanted to start.
As you mentioned, when you stuff that bullet back in there, you'll pick up fps. So it should remain obvious that seating depth and powder charge are related. You can change the timing of the load entirely by adjusting one or the other. You can find that long seating depth provides a more consistent node than short, or vice versa. The OCW will absolutely change if you drastically change the seating depth... but sometimes that is exactly what is required to tune a load. This is a fact of load development as well as a fact of troubleshooting. The advice I gave you was specifically for troubleshooting, as you clearly have a problem, and I wanted you to be able to quickly and efficiently find out if seating depth was the issue. If it was seating depth, you'd likely have run into a depth that would have reduced/removed the flyer... but you didn't.
You tried a different powder, so that isn't it either.
Trying a different scope is a good idea... especially since it's a nightforce.
Basically you need to just keep swapping things out until all variables have been changed. You can go after reloading components first, or go after the rifle first. If the rifle is proven, then that cuts your work in half. If the components are proven... that also cuts the work in half. If nothing is proven, then you just start in where you like. I typically go after components first, because the things I buy on the rifle are typically not to blame. It's usually components or technique... or things like reloading dies.
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Well I’ll swap the optics back out this weekend, hopefully that’s where the problem lies. I did not have this problem originally so it’s most likely in either the optic, sizing die, or possibly neck tension.
I’ll update this thread as I go.
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@bull81 The consistency of the flyer... gives me a lot of thought issues.
Only one... and only one in each 5. Is it a different shot number each time? ... or is it random?
Are you feeding from a magazine or single loading?
Usually when something like this creeps up, you'll have two separate groups, with random rounds going into each. 3 into one spot, 2 in another. That kind of thing.
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I’m feeding from a mag,It is random may be the first round or the last. If I had to pick though I’d say more time than not it’s been the last shot. It’s done the double group a time or two but that’s not the norm for it. Usually just one round and nearly always .5 moa
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@bull81 Try single loading. Depending on neck tension, and how well your mag is tuned... that could very easily be the culprit.
Another thing to think about is the mental ramifications of having something like this go on. If you are expecting a flyer every 5 shots, you'll produce a flyer every 5 shots. Once it starts happening, staying out of your own head afterwards can be very daunting. The fifth shot of a group that has 4 in the zero's is almost always the one that goes out.
You look down there and say "Oh wow, that's really something... now if I can just not screw this up." That right there almost ensures you screw it up. When you've got a rifle that can shoot in the .0's, .1's, and .2's regular, the mechanics you must deploy behind the rifle to keep those shots together are remarkably fine. Holding your face the wrong way is enough to get a shot out of the group. Each shot must be exactly as the one before it. Be very mindful of this aspect.
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@orkan
I am definitely aware the cause could be shooter induced, I’m also not ruling that out completely either. The mental aspect of this definitely plays a part at times. The thing that is odd to me is the consistency in the flyers POI. Neck tension is at .002 and seating pressure is nice and consistent.
I’ll try swapping the optics and single feed them to see what happens. Im gonna keep messing with it until I get it figured out.
I have a 1000 yard match next weekend and plan on shooting this rifle. Shooting 60 rounds for group should help show any pattern and also helps with the mental side of it as well since your not distracted looking at a tiny little group through the scope.
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Ok decided to try a 3rd powder today just checking. Good news is all three powders I’ve tried have given excellent results, I plan on loading 25 rounds each to shoot this weekend at the 1000 yard match and see which one preforms best. Bad news is that one damn flyer is still there. I tried single feeding with no luck then swapped optics and ended up in the same situation. This time I made a point to pay attention to which round was the flyer, group one was round 3 and group two was round 1. Both groups measured in the low .2’s excluding the flyer, group one opened up to .519 and group two opened up to .457. I called all 10 of these shots as good honest shots.
I have gone through 3 powders so don’t think that’s part of the problem.
I do have some CCI-BR4’s I can try instead of the 450’s
Other than that I don’t know what else to try without ordering a few different bushing and play with neck tension.
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@bull81 When you're seating bullets, are you culling those that seat harder/softer than the median?
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Yes that’s normal practice for me. I’ve only had a couple that felt different, I set them aside.
Is there anything that could be wrong with the sizing die that could cause this? Sizing and annealing is the only thing that’s been done this time vs the first loading. I will say that when the brass was new it had very very low neck tension barely .001 probably closer to .00075 to be honest. I thought it may cause a problem being that light but it shot very well and very consistent.
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Isn't there a tool that has an indicator that measures how much pressure it takes to seat a bullet? If so would it be of any value in loading at this level of accuracy? Somewhere I have seen this, possibly offered by KM tools. I use the Wilson chamber type seaters a lot and I can really tell when the neck tension differs. Sometimes i use my drill press quill to seat and also have a small arbor press.
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@bigfoot
There is it works with an arbor press. I’ve never used one but no several people that do. Because I’ve I never used one I can’t say if there is any real benefit to them or not. I think most your bench rest shooters and some Fclass guys use them.
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@bull81 said in Trouble shooting flyers:
Is there anything that could be wrong with the sizing die that could cause this?
Absolutely. Have you checked concentricity on your sized brass? Loaded rounds?
Improper/inconsistent annealing could also be the cause.
Take me through your reloading process in as great a detail as you can. Be descriptive about technique as well please.
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After firing
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I anneal them if they are clean if not I’ll tumble them for about 15 minutes just to get the dirt off. I set my annealer up so that it rotates the brass out of the flame just before the flame turns orange. Bench source annealer with a swirl flame torch.
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I lube all the brass then run everything through the sizing die and bump the shoulder back about .0015-.002. This particular round I use a whidden full length bushing die. Bushing size is .265 and uses the expander ball.
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Trim with a giraud trimmer.
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Tumble in rice for about an hour and a half just to get all the lube off.
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I clean the primer pockets out with a brush.
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prime with a CPS primer tool
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charge powder with a Promentheus and
seat bullets.
I check every few rounds during the sizing, trimming, and seating process for consistency. When I seat bullets I normally have only a few that feel different and they are set aside for fouler rounds or sighter if going to a Fclass match. My press is a forester co-ax and I clean the jaws and base pretty frequently. The only concentric gauge I have is a POS hornady so I don’t use it. I also process all my brass at one time to keep everything as consistent as possible.
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@bull81 How are you lubing the cases?
The only thing in that list that I disagree with on its face, is the bushing die.
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@orkan
Yea I knew you would :). I got burned by whidden on a non bushing die one time and they said it was to spec but bullets would fall into the case on unturned necks with LC brass and could be pulled out with two fingers with Lapua brass. Aside from a possible concentricity issue the bearing surface on these 105’s is above the neck shoulder junction so donuts shouldn’t be an issue.I use a home made alcohol and lanolin lube and a touch of wax in the necks
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@bull81 The concentricity aspect is what I'm mostly concerned about. Get yourself the accuracy one tool to check em out.
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@orkan
Yea look like I’m gonna have to break down and buy one
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Ok accuracy one concentricity gauge came in today. Checked loaded ammo, .003 runout at the neck and .005 at the brearing surface of the bullet. Checked a fired round and it’s less than .0005.
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That's definitely enough to cause those kinds of flyers you're seeing.
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@orkan
I took the bushing out of the die and sized a case and ended up with .0005 runout so I know it’s in the actual bushing. I’ll call whidden and see what they will do to fix the problem. FYI the Accuracy One gauge is pretty nice, the only one I can compare it to it the hornady but just can’t see it getting much better than this. And using it left handed is not an issue at all for me, I know that was a concern you had about it at one time. Be glad to send it to you to try out if you haven’t gotten something else yet.
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@bull81 said in Trouble shooting flyers:
@orkan
I took the bushing out of the die and sized a case and ended up with .0005 runout so I know it’s in the actual bushing. I’ll call whidden and see what they will do to fix the problem. FYI the Accuracy One gauge is pretty nice, the only one I can compare it to it the hornady but just can’t see it getting much better than this. And using it left handed is not an issue at all for me, I know that was a concern you had about it at one time. Be glad to send it to you to try out if you haven’t gotten something else yet.Are you tightening the decapping assembly down on the bushing?
If so, try sizing another case with the decapping assembly backed up just slightly off the bushing.Think tolerances - there has to be enough room laterally to allow that bushing in and out of the die. If the decapping assembly is being snugged down on the bushing, the bushing will be forced to one side of its hole as the decapping assembly turns against it to a stop.
Common practice with bushing dies is to leave the decapping assembly up off the bushing just enough to allow the bushing to float.
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No it’s not tighten up on the bushing, it’s some slack to let the bushing float around in there a bit. I snug it up on the bushing then back it off about 1/4 turn and lock it down.
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Talked to whidden and they said they would do whatever I wanted to do to fix the issue. I’m gonna let them swap out the intire die for a non bushing sizing die and an expander ball kit. I have a match tomorrow that will use up the remaining brass, so when the new die arrives we will see if the run out was the issue. Plus side to this whole issue is I have found three very accurate consistent loads with Varget, H4350, and IMR 8208 XBR so I shouldn’t ever have to worry about a powder shortage.
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All three loads did extremely well today at 1000 yards, well enough to pull out a win. The H4350 held the best vertical though probably close to .5 moa of vertical in extremely bad mirage. The Varget and 8208 loads still preformed extremely well but we’re closer to .75-1 moa of vertical in the same conditions. Once the new dies come in I’ll try to sort out the concentricity issue and hopefully the flyer which did seem as evident today.
