Learning to shoot in the Flint Hills of Kansas

  • I may try to post most of my questions and activities in one thread to make them easier to find ... at least I'll start off with that idea ...

    I think the one thing that made me join this forum is the hope that I can learn more about wind. I did ocean sailing off Jacksonville Florida for a number of years ... and if nothing else ... that gives me the confidence ... that the wind can be estimated ... of course on the water, we have a great wind meter ... the water ... and we can see the wind over here and the different wind over there .. .and we can see the wind coming ... see the changes coming ... on land throwing projectiles down range it is a little tougher ...

    I've been reading several different books ... some say reading the mirage works ... that trying to read the mirage at mid-range works ... dividing the angle of the mirage by 4 gives the approximate MPH ... others act like this is voodoo ...

    Some say the wind early in the flight of the bullet is more important than the wind later in the flight of the bullet.

    These are some examples that indicate to me that, we may not have this down to a science yet ... but being a mathematician ... whose graduate work happened to be in (hyperbolic) differential equations ... some of these topics and concepts should not be up for debate ... there should be solid answers ... perhaps I need to study the PDEs myself and figure it out? It should actually not be too hard. Or has this been done and I'm just reading the wrong books? The books I'm reading are by experienced Marine shooters (2 such books) and a US Army Sniper manual.

    Also I note Greg's most excellent data book templates have a spot to mark the wind direction and speed for a given group of rounds. In my limited experience .. that might work pretty well out to say 500yds ... but at 1400yds (a stage at a nearby ranch) .. last time I went ... I rode up and down the range and measured the wind speed and direction ... and we had three different directions and three different speeds. Back at the firing line ... we averaged it out to 9 MPH from the East ... and though we could watch the range flags blowing at different strengths and in different directions all day ... the 9 MPH average remained about right all day, until the sun started going down ... then the wind dropped way off ... until it was totally dark, then picked back up to 9 MPH again ... We missed some (these were NATO steel) by inches ... but hit more than we missed by holding for 9 MPH. There is almost no vegetation on this stage ... though you can see some to the right near the firing line ... but further out ... none except about 300 yds to the West along a creek ...


    So, one current challenge is to figure out how to increase hit ratio on this stage. They did put up some range flags because people complained ... but when they are all blowing in different directions and different speeds, what to do?

  • Great post. Good questions.

    I have tried to reduce this topic to text numerous times. I have failed every time. It is so complex, and so many have tried and failed before me, that I'm not sure if it will ever be done. One of these day's I'm going to really try to explain it... but that day is not today. I'm going to do a quick flyby and hope I can help you a bit.

    Heck, when it comes to targets beyond 800yds, (c-zone ipsc) I can't guarantee a hit in some wind conditions anyway... so perhaps that makes me a novice as well. More than any other thing, the wind certainly makes me feel like one every year.

    I'll ignore for a moment the conversation about the winds closest you having the largest bearing on the bullets flight due to the lateral deflection velocity theory. Just take for granted that once the bullets lateral velocity reaches the velocity of the wind... it will stay constant as it will not gain any more lateral velocity. ... but I digress.

    It was unsurprising to see the terrain in the image you posted. As I read your description of wind behavior, I told myself "this fella is shooting in hills." Sure enough, that's exactly what you get in hilly country. I will tell you that there is a certain and scientific explanation to it all. There's a specific terrain or thermal reason the wind is blowing the direction it is blowing along that range of targets. Wind always blows cold to hot. That means the cold air, being the most dense, is always flowing beneath the hot air. Warm air rises, cool air takes its place until an equilibrium is met. The more severe the temperature difference, the faster the wind (air transfer) you get.

    So, if you pay attention to the lay of the land, you'll see that some parts of the land, the sun is beating on and warming up... while other parts are either shaded by many trees or are on the shady side of a hill. These micro climates along your bullets flight path are the cause for what you're seeing. Oddly enough, this is why myself as well as every other experienced shooter will typically prefer a stable yet brisk wind from a side, never 12:00 or 6:00, as opposed to a real mild wind.

    You see, when the wind is blowing good, 8mph+, from a specific direction... it is usually caused by a major weather pattern. Large air volume moving great distances. These winds tend to be very stable. They stay for long duration and don't switch back and forth. As a long range shooter, I love those winds. All I need to consider then is the direction and the major land terrain features around me, around my target, and in between. In the case of a weak wind that is not created by a large weather pattern... the wind will often be created almost entirely by these micro-climates of the terrain around you. Small temperature changes caused by water evaporation, static vegetation, cold side of hill vs hot side of hill, etc. That micro-climate temperature variation gets the air transfer (wind) started. Then as it blows across the land in waves it will be channeled by the terrain it encounters... with the fastest wind being the most dense, at the bottom of draws/ravines and the slowest wind being at the peak. Do remember that the slow wind at the peak is dependent upon terrain features as well as totally false during major weather pattern wind. Next time the wind gets to blowing hard, stand up at the top of a peak. hehe It won't be slow.

    So there you go, a quick flyby of garbled nonsense. The real answer? Do what the rest of us do: Go shoot in the wind for about 50,000 rounds. You'll have a pretty good lock on it after that... and then it will still be the cause of at least 90% of your misses. ;)

  • Shooting in the wind will humble even the best of shooters. There is no substitution for real world practice and experience.

    I went out a few weeks back to my normal spot. I had a 20" plate set up at 780 yards. I've gotten good DOPE on my rifle and ammo now. Told my pops, "watch this, I'll hit that plate cold bore". Well I dialed in my DOPE and made a very clean shot. Missed the plate by 6"-8" because of a bad wind call. Next time I'll keep my mouth shut until I make the shot first lol.

  • I wake up in the morning, grab my coffee, and will never be able to explain my passion for marksmanship.

    "Go shoot in the wind for about 50,000 rounds."
    "Watch this, I'll hit that plate cold bore."
    "These are some examples that indicate to me that, we may not have this down to a science yet."

    The first match (Camp Perry) I shot in had a 25 mile an hour crosswind. Nobody had good DOPE so you could say the playing field was level. Being a newbie I dialed it in and went the wrong direction (twice). Some guys had crossfires on both adjoining targets. The wind was a constant. The constant challenge.

    Greg just plain shoots the lights out. Norcal_in_az has DOPE for up to and including every cold bore shot. Kansas just wants a wind model for well, the whole state of Kansas.

    I was practicing one day on the Pertracca Range with my .22lr and saw the bullets lobbing in. Ah, so that's what the wind is all about. At least on that day it was.

    So here is my question: In a target rich environment (e.g. slow fire prone) is there an advantage to having a busy reticle (e.g. Tremor 3) so a shooter can acquire better real time DOPE? I appreciate the "full value" of your comments.

  • said:

    is there an advantage to having a busy reticle (e.g. Tremor 3) so a shooter can acquire better real time DOPE?

    I have never found an advantage to those overly busy reticles. I've had many a shooter lay down next to me with the newest "wind" reticle and miss targets I was hitting with my simple Gen2XR. Same goes for those that think they need 0.2 mil holds all over the place.

  • I agree with @orkan here on the reticle. The overly busy reticles can really slow everything down. I guess if you train enough with it you can get use to it. I prefer a .5 Mil marks over the complicated busy reticles. Your eye can easily break .5 mild down to .1 holds. I have a Nightforce ATACR with the Mil C reticle which has .2 marks for wind and elevation and I find myself concentrating more on the marks than my actual shooting which slows me down and also has accounted for a few misses. The NXS I had prior to the ATACR had a Mil R reticle which only had .5 marks I liked it better.

  • Ok 50,000 rounds ... well if I want to do that ... with plenty of time left to enjoy the fruits of the effort ... before I die ... then I will need to MASSIVELY increase my round count per month ... my goal (and I don't count pistol and shotgun) has been 2,500 (aimed shots) per year ... that is about 200 per month or about 50 per week ... and I've been averaging about 3,000 per year or 250 per month. So, to squeeze the 50k into say 5 years ... would require 10,000 per year or ... 833 per month or rounding up ... 200 per week.
    Oh my !!!
    Question is, how valuable would .22lr be for purposes of wind practice? I've done it before ... out to 200-300yds .... and the wind certainly has a huge effect on the bullet at those distances ... but judging that wind effect is pretty much listening to the trees move and detecting the increase and the decrease ... and that seems easier than what G. is talking about above .. judging the effects of tree lines and valleys and mini-hills and watching where the sun and the shadows are etc. So learning those sorts of judgments might require practice over greater distances where the terrain variations have a bigger impact.
    So then maybe 5.56 at 500yds to 700yds ... I can do that on my land ... currently my smallest bolt gun is .300WM ... I have a 7.62x51 (er .308WIN) on my short list, so perhaps I would need to primarily use that at 500 to 700 ... though wind effects are less on 175gr bullet. If I get that last slot in the May class G. is having I will more forward with the 7.62x51 bolt gun regardless as he requires a SA bolt and I have none currently.
    Where I shoot on my land is a valley, going from about 1400 feet down to about 1175 foot elevation between 700 and 0 yards ... shooting down the length of this "gully" towards the main creek.
    The high end of the Valley is to the South, the low end to the North ... and I am shooting to the North. The main creek flows West to East behind my back stop. I should do a range card.
    Going beyond 700yds on my land is possible, but I need to build up another backstop. Then I can get to 1050yds.
    At the "nearby" range, there is a 500-1400 yds stage ... and a 1200 to 2400 yds stage they just opened up. But I cannot practice there every day like I can on my land.
    So any thoughts has to which calibers and distances are most useful for expending these 50k rounds?
    .22lr 0 to 300yds
    5.56 0 to 700yds
    7.62x51 to 700yds

  • Looking at Orkan's post, no wonder I'm having problems with the wind when they are variable. Didn't have the terrain issues or the temperature changes pockets (that I know of) because Florida is pretty flat. I had conditions a while back where the wind at my firing position was varying between 2-15MPH according to my Kestral Sportsman. Past 700 got hard and 1000 impossible.

    I will take Orkan's shooting course next year because I want to take a long shot at an elk so between missing the signup for the course this year and waiting for a tag, looks like I have time.

  • Ok here is my first "quick and dirty" attempt at a range card for where I target shoot on my land ... this is my first attempt so all comments and suggestions welcome ... I still need to fill in the inclinations.


  • @kansas Google Earth will allow you to box off the area around your range and provide distance and elevation data for you with amazing precision. Best part is, you can save the image and have it printed as large or small as you wish with all your annotations. I use this method to insure that my hunting blinds are positioned so that they are not in the impact zone of other hunters' blinds and in calculating fees for fertilizing and weed control on our farm.

    It's a little scary to realize just how detailed the information available to the general public about your land is. Even worse to realize that the government has that same information in multiple levels of more intrusive imaging. But, that is the world we live in so why not put what's freely available to use for our own purposes?

  • 2018-03-31
    10 MPH N

    Goals: Wind practice.

    Environment: Partly Cloudy ... Snow forecasted in next 48-72 hours ... between yester and 3 days from now, wind forecasted to move from SE to S to SW to W to NW to N to NE to E and to SE.
    Wind now moving NNW to N. I am shooting NNW

    Equipment: 5.56(18) with Black Hills 77gr SMK, XTR2 3-15x scr-mil, radius, kestrel 2500nv


    (Note: PVS-30 not attached during day :) )

    Activity: Went to target and painted. Went to 500yd FP and setup. Measured wind for 2 mins to get an averge. Throw grass into air about every 40 seconds to get a direction. Direction showed between 0 and 5 degrees off the bullet path. Average wind 9.5, min 7.4 max 15.8

    Ranged target with radius got 493yds.
    AB said hold 2.6 up at 475yds and 2.9 up at 500yds

    First shot I held 2.75 up

    I decided to use 1/3 value for the wind rather than 0 value, even though wind direction at firing point was showing between 0 and 5 degrees wind to the bullet path. AB showed 1.4 for full value 10 mph wind. So I rounded the 1/3 value up to .5 mils.

    The first round was left 2 inches or 8 inches left of target center. So I held 1 mil right for the next 4 rounds which were hits. I noted that I could see the splotches of these rounds and that they were hitting low and right on average. I could hear the wind gusting up (to 15? ) and the backing off (to 7 ? ).

    I decided I was low for 2 reasons: (1) I was aiming low, I was aiming center of target instead of at the dang red dot I put there to aim at :D ... and also because I needed to hold higher.

    I noted the mirage was laying over at 60 degree angle moving from right to left. At a 2/3 value wind and would make 1.0 mil about right. The 60 degree angle, would give 60/4 = 15 MPH and if I est. 30 degrees off the bullet path for an effective average then 10 mph or 0.95 mils right.

    I decided I was about 4 inches low, so I would hold 3.0 mils up and aim at the red dot.


    I lucked out and realized the "2" digit along the left side of the vertical cross hair was good for helping judge 1 mil right hold. So I put that right over the target for my 1 mil right hold. Then I held up 3.0 First round was left of the neck by about 2 inches. The wind was at high intensity. I held 1.4 right and got 2 hits, the 4th round was right of the neck by 2 inches. I dropped back to 1 mil hold and last round was a hit. I could see the one splotch on the neck and another one high up, so realized I was holding high. Reduced hold to 2.9.

    Last 5 round group I waited for the intensity to drop and help 1 mil for all shots and got five hits.


    Summary: Well, I need to figure out why the effective wind direction is way different along most of the bullet path than it is at the 500yd firing point. One guess, is the wind is blowing up the hill towards me and I'm on the East side of the draw it is blowing up ... and the wind could be straightening out to align with the lay of the draw as it pushes up the draw ... i.e. the "half pipe" formed by the draw could be changing the wind direction as it moves up the draw. That's one theory anyway.
    My goal of course is to shoot only two rounds at a given target. If I was scoring then the first round hit might get 80 points and second round hit might get 20. Of course eventually I might be an expert at calling wind from this exact spot, so I'll need to move around a lot ...
    Based on the experience today ... reading the mirage gave me a MUCH closer read on the wind than the kestrel did off the top of the hill at the firing point. Had I used the mirage estimate instead of the kestrel estimate, I would've had a MUCH better chance of a first round hit.
    So those saying mirage reading is voodoo, didn't gain any alignment points with my experience today. And the mirage was not "boiling" which if it was heading right at me, it should've been. It was 60 degrees laid over and moving left. Now I did not assume that meant full value ... I rationalized a 2/3 wind value based on merging the grass in the air direction read with the mirage ...
    But all in all, this was really the first time I ever tried to incorporate the mirage in my wind estimate and I happy to say it might help. Certainly people like Carlos Hathcock have existed who believed the mirage was the most important element of his wind reading. Was he just lucky for 1000s of rounds? Another Marine shooter says literally that reading mirage is voodoo. So the Marines aren't all reading from the same playbook. Though over a 50 year span of time it is fair to assume the playbook gets updated. A version of the US Army Sniper manual from the 90s ... is teaching Hathcocks method exactly ... so the Army had not progressed beyond Hathcock's knowledge from 30 years prior by the 90s.

  • @kansas

    0930-1100 // 1200-1300
    10 MPH NNE

    Goals: Wind practice.

    Environment: Overcast, later frozen rain.

    Equipment: 6.5G(18), 123AMAX // 5.56(18), 77grSMK BH

    Drove around to paint the 2 targets and check wind at both FPs.
    500yd FP: Low: 5.4 Avg: 7.1 High: 11.0
    730yd FP: Low: 4.8 Avg: 6.9 High: 11.8

    Then setup at the 730yd FP with tripod and 6.5G(18). Tripod needed here because curve of hill blocks LOS to target.

    Made sure temp and humidity were keyed in to Shooter. Used to use AB on old phone, trying Shooter on new phone.

    So AB says 7.3 up, so I started with that.
    For the wind, full value 10 MPH was 1.9 mil, the wind direction was 45 off the bullet path so I decided to hold 1 mil.
    This situation is shooting downhill over the creek into the pasture on the other side of the creek. I've noted previously that the wind likes to move along the creek, even if blowing in a different direction overall.

    So I was holding 7.3 mils up and 1 mil right. I was on 20 power the target looked fine. My position wasn't great, but I was wrapped around the tripod, using m eto steady the tripod and the tripod to steady me. The wobble was certainly there but is was not huge. Maybe 2 foot of wobble on the target in all directions.

    First two rounds I thought I heard hits, but the "clang" was not loud and I couldn't see clear evidence of movement of the target. I decided to fire a "sighter" at 7.0 up, hoping it would be low in the dirt. I fired it and it was just below the target and centered.


    I decided to hold up 7.6 instead of 7.3 ... and loaded 1 more round. Fired three rounds, once the sound was clear on the target, but not the other two times. I could not detect splotches on the target.
    Rolled to the target and saw 5 hits with pretty good center. Two were low and three were centered. So I got lucky this time .. all hits except the sighter ...
    No mirage visible, so I could not use the mirage to adjust my wind estimate.

    Then rolled back to the 500yd FP which is actually abouti 200yds SSW of the 730FP, shooting at a different target. Redid the wind estimate.
    Low: 3.7 Avg 5.2 High: 8.5


    The direction was 70 degrees off the bullet path. Shooter said 1.4 for 10 mph full value, I decided to hold 0.7 First round was left of the target by 2 inches ... Other 14 rounds on target. I could see the splotches were low, so I increased the hold. I started at 2.9 up and 0.7 right. I had to shift the hold between 1.0 right and 0.7 right as the wind increased and died. I could hear the hits, though seeing the target move with 5.56 rounds is tough.


    (note the grey splotches are from yesterday, ignore those, only the 14 dark ones below the red dot are from today)

    It was disappointing to miss the first one. I'd rather have hit the first one and missed all the others. But it didn't happen today.
    I am up on a ridge at 1309 feet shooting down to a target about 100 feet lower at 500yds, why is the wind higher down there, than it is up where I am?

    Here is a 180 degree panorama of the 500yd FP. First pic is looking West ... the terrain drops away into the "central valley" and you can see a pond there. Then the terrain rises again on the other side of the central valley. The prevailing wind around here is generally from the South, from the left of this pic and whether the wind is from the SE, S and SW it comes down that draw and over that pond through the gap in the trees and out into my firing line ... that is normally. Now, the wind is from the opposite direction.


    Second shot straight at the target from the 500yd FP. I mowed down the grass a little this winter so I could shot prone though I rarely do. But I am prepping for a competition next weekend (my first ever) and they want us to shoot prone, so I'm shooting prone now to practice. Today the wind is about 70 degrees off the bullet path so from the right to the left.


    Third shot looking due North, the wind is about 45 degrees from the right in this pic. This is looking up to the crest of what we call "Hill 1309".


    This is looking WNW from the 730yd FP, the horizon is a major divide in our county about 1450 foot high and 2 on the left the 3 miles on the right, distance. That ridge divides our county into two major creek systems and we are near the origin of the one on our side which flows through our land from West to East. The three line nearest the bottom of the pic is the creek.


    This is looking towards the target from the 730yd FP again I mowed so I could shoot prone, but can't see the target up this high on the hill due to the curve of the land, so using the tripod. The line of fire pass over the trees on both sides of the creek and up to a treeline on the other side of a broome field. The bullet is flying 60 foot or so up in the air over the tops of those trees while in flight.


    This is looking NE into the wind, a "jungle" over in that direction, but lower ground than what I am on. I'm on the ridge that becomes hill 1309.


    Summary: This coming weeked we will be shooting out at the ranch that has the 1400yd stage and there are several shorter stages as well. But for us the 1400 one is the key, trying to beat the wind on that one. I'll be up spotting first for my buddy with my crappy L&S 15-45x day spotter on manfrotto. I'll set up dirctly behind him hoping to see trace, though seeing dirt splashes of misses out there is pretty easy.
    This is our first ever competition, just a local thing, but it is what it is. We hope to learn from our mistakes and I'm sure there will be plenty so we should learn a lot !

  • @rr2241tx

    I did use google earth to enable me to draw the above ... but wanted to practice drawing it and not just screen shoting GE. Want to acquire the skill of drawing range cards ... assuming GE not available and drawing a first one by hand is part of that journey !

    One thing I noticed was GE give the 2D distances ... whereas my range finders give the 3D distances :D
    So since I'm shooting down hill, my range finders give the hypotenuse whereas the GE gives the long leg ...

  • @kansas The long leg is the effective range for figuring drop. Doing your range card old school is indeed good practice. You have a lot more range than I do. There's probably not a 500 yard shot on my whole ranch due to terrain and vegetation. I really have to be mindful of the cows too. Putting a hole in livestock is enough to ruin your whole day for a couple of years. Black cows are danged difficult to see in heavy shadow.

  • 1400yds is a long shot. In those hills... that's a looooooooong shot.

  • @orkan

    Now wait, we're not gonna be shooting 1400 on my land ... no no no ... out at Spear Point Ranch in Benard Kansas ... the range in the pic at the top of this thread ... here is another shot ...


    And that is Central Kansas ... much flatter out there ... NOT like the Flint Hills where I am ...

    We (James and Joe) have been out to SPR before and shot the 1400yds stage 4 times (Joe) and 3 times (James) ... and yes 1400yds is a long way .. but not as far as it would be on my land !

  • said:

    Putting a hole in livestock is enough to ruin your whole day

    Oh yes ... well, without going into excruciating detail ... the way my pastures are fenced, the cattle can't get in to the far broome patch I'm shooting into right now ... we don't want them in there ... we hay the boome for winter feed ... and I can see they aren't in the pasture where I am ... further when I was driving around painting and checking the targets I could confirm where they were ... in 2 groups to the west ...
    Funny thing is, I tell people who ask, that I can see where they are better at night with thermal than I can in the day ... thermal can see them in the woods whether they are black or brown ... and ours are both :)

    But yes, it would be bad bad bad ... and there are days where I have to wait 5-10 ... even 30 mins for them to move ... before I can shoot ... there have been days where I decide I can't shoot ... in that direction at least ... so they do disrupt occasionally ... but I also can distract them with range cubes sometimes ... and then hurry and go shoot ... before they come looking for more ... they have been de-sensitized to my shooting ... but when they are in the LOF .... have to wait for them to move ...

  • Oh and also, depending on what gun you bring, you don't even try for the 1400 ... unless I bring .300WM(24) I don't even try ... this time ... I'll be going out to 900 with the 6.5G(18) ... buddy James is bring new 7.62(16) ... so he will probably be about the same ... most people that shoot these comps don't bring enough gun for the 1400 ... so it is just there ... "beckoning" to us :)

  • @kansas said:


    Now wait, we're not gonna be shooting 1400 on my land ... no no no ... out at Spear Point Ranch in Benard Kansas ... the range in the pic at the top of this thread ... here is another shot ...


    And that is Central Kansas ... much flatter out there ... NOT like the Flint Hills where I am ...

    We (James and Joe) have been out to SPR before and shot the 1400yds stage 4 times (Joe) and 3 times (James) ... and yes 1400yds is a long way .. but not as far as it would be on my land !

    NICE layout...

  • Only got one day video of shooting last fall at SPR ... James on my .300WM(24) with 220gr OTMBT (Barnes load) and me on crappy spotter calling wind and finally remembering to take one video ... this is a miss at 1300 a few inches to the right ...
    One thing I recall was second round hit at 1400 ... I was happy about that one ... first was a miss of maybe a foot left ... this was with "constant" wind of 9 MPH ... with the range flags all in different directions at different speeds as they were all day ...
    One common rule set they use in comps for the 1400 stage is max 2 rounds per distance, must get 1 hit to progress to next distance. We were using tougher rules this day, must get 2 consecutive hits to progress with no limit. Also they usually use a 3 minute time limit for the whole stage so ... 10 distances, 18 seconds per distance ... roughly 9 seconds per round, so not a lot of time to admire the scenery. But they change the rules a lot from comp to comp to keep things interesting. Not sure what the rules will be this weekend.
    We aren't going to "win" or even "place" ... but to LEARN from our mistakes !!!

  • 2 weeks ago, based on input in this thread, I have decided to try to increase my round count goal from 50rds per week (and I am only counting aimed rifle fire in this total) to 200rds per week. The challenges will be 2 fold first, cost, This will increase my annual ammo cost from around $2500 to around $6,000. I'm assuming 50% of the rounds will be .22LR. And second, ensuring I prioritize the time to shoot the 200rds.
    Here are the round counts from the first 2 weeks of the program

    Week Gun Round Count Activity
    25-31 march .22lr(16) 50 dot drills 50yds
    25-31 March 5.56(18) 50 zeroing and wind practice 500yds
    1-7 April 6.5G(18) 20 zeroing and wind practice 730yds
    1-7 April 5.56(18) 15 wind practice 500yds
    1-7 April 6.5(18) 60 zeroing and wind practice
    1-7 April 6.5(18) 60 SPR competition/wind practice

    So 25-31 March total 100rds ... since I didn't start the program until half way thru that week, the 100rds is "on track"

    1-7 Apr 155 rds ... I was 45 rds short this week, there were some distractions, but that will always be the case. Most of these rounds will have to be shot at night.
    I can ensure 2 long night sessions each week and 1 long day session (for me long is 2 hours). But a session of .22lr dot drills near the house can be done in 30m and I can do at least 2 of those per week. For the .22lr dot drills, I can't make Orkans 0-100 score dot targets work at night with the optic I have on the .22lr which is an xtr2 1.5-8x fixed focus. It is too fuzzy at 50yds. If I use the half inch solid dots and start at 25yds I think I can make that work. I will get that program working today, by using the .22lr close to the house I can increase the round count more easily. Going out to my pasture shooting points, the travel time only is 30m and setup target checking time for a 2 hour total session is another 30-45m, leaving only 15-30m for actual shooting. So the .22lr dot drills will make round count increase easier. I will try to aim to hit 100rds of .22LR and 100rds of "other" each week.

  • Bravo sir. I love to see people dedicating themselves to the discipline.

  • Oh, I forgot to mention one positive aspect of yesterday. My impressions of the NF ATACR 7-35x F1 T3 scope, when being used in open terrain over varying distances, both as a spotter and as a rifle scope.

    At each stage of the match, I kept the 6.5G(18) with the NF mounted on a manfrotto tripod for use as a spotter, except when I was shooting.
    I generally ran it at 10x, 15x or 20x ... though once as an experiment, I ran it up to 30x for shooting a stage with a bunch of yote shaped steel in front of a large brush pile.

    At 10x, the scope was a good target finding spotter. The interesting thing about this match, is, when we got to each new stage, the first thing we had to do was find the targets! And that was not easy ... yes ... out in the open, it was not easy to see a bunch of steel targets ... how could that be!? Well, some of them were "hidden" under trees, some in front of brush piles, and some were what we called "tiny" and "far away. And they might be spread out over an area 1600 yards deep and 40 degrees wide. And there were lots of hills and gullies as well.
    So 10x was useful to help find the targets.
    I would generally crank in to 15x to try to spot for the hits and misses, but sometimes I would stay on 10x if the targets were all spread out, because I wanted to be able to find them before the shooter did, so I would be ready.
    If I thought I could see mirage, I would crank up to 20x, but mirage, while present later in the day, was hard to see in most cases, due to the background.
    When shooting, I generally ran the magnification on 15x to 20x, but sometimes had to crank out to 10x to help find the targets faster. All these stages were timed and cranking magnification took time, was to be avoided if possible, but sometimes not advisable due to difficulty finding targets. Oh, I would say the average number of targets per stage was six and the average number of required shooting positions per stage was 2.
    But when engaging targets over 850yds, I had to crank down to 10x in order to hold to 12 mils, like for the last target I engaged at 935 yds.
    What I was impressed with, was the ability to see the target and the hits and misses just fine at 10x. I am used to thinking I need more magnification, like at least 12x or 15x at 900-100yds ... but with the good glass of the NF, not needed. On 10x I could see fine.

    This reminds me of a Greg post from several months back (on a different forum) where he was pointing out that scopes with lesser quality glass, can compensate by having more magnification. This trade-off between resolution and magnification stuck in my brain and I think the experience with the NF yesterday confirmed this concept.

    As the day wore on, I realized I could see hits and misses the official spotter was calling "NO CALL" on ... so I started chiming in. On one fairly distant target, the best shooter in our squad was 2 mils right but centered on elevation with first shot. I called "2 mils right at 3 o'clock exactly". And his next round hit the target. So spotting can be fun too!

    The level in the spuhr mount was handy because often the target mounting poles were far from straight up and down with respect to gravity.

  • @kansas said in Learning to shoot in the Flint Hills of Kansas:

    but with the good glass of the NF, not needed.

    If you think nightforce has good glass, I'll look forward to your comments if you ever use a Tangent Theta.

  • A few pics ...

    This is the stage with the 5 yotes steels up on the ridge in front of a brush pile. If you look at the top of the ridge, about 1 third of the way from the left side of the pic, you can see the brush pile. That's where the steel yotes are.
    The rules were, 2 shots at each steel, shoot first 3 yotes from one position on the rock pile then stand up and take a different position on the rock pile to shoot the other 2 yotes.
    The hard part was, if you fired at the yotes, you would not be able to see your misses because the rounds would hit the brush pile. So, we decided to fire a "sighter" first, low into the ground in front of the yotes to judge the wind. That worked well. Though not something you could do in all circumstances.


    This pic also gives you an idea of some of the terrain ... low ground closer, high ground farther away. In general, that meant, when scanning for targets, it wasn't just left to right, or just up and down .. .but both ...


    This is a pic thru the lens of the NF. You can see two targets, one under the tree and one to the right.


    Free hand thru the lens pics rarely due justice to the image ... but again, especially if you look outside the scope, you get an idea for the terrain.


    That's me on the left spotting.


    For this stage we had to shoot three targets, 2 rds each, while balancing the rifle on one part of the downed tree and then move to another (both parts were marked) of the tree and balance the rifle there and shoot 2 other targets.
    The shooter is trying to use his tripod to help him strengthen his position. Given the amount of time he spent manipulating the tripod and given the 3 minute time limit, it seemed this idea did more harm than good. But if we never try new stuff, we never learn, so it was an interesting idea.

  • @kansas
    Looks like a great place to shoot! Enjoyed the write up.

  • 2018-04-08
    10 mph SSE

    Goals: Wind practice

    Environment: Solid overcast, wintery mix (I think they call it) ... wind, rain and frozen rain. Good weather for wind practice !!!

    Equipment: 5.56(18) with 77gr smk BH load. xtr2 3-15x, radius, kestrel, shooter on phone, manfrotto, 4-wheeler, 7 mags of 5 rds each. Tab Gear, rear bag, "Rite in the Rain" note pad and pen.

    Activity: Gave the cows some cracked corn, to keep them busy in the alfalfa patch. Went and painted the two targets I would be using. Then headed up to the 500yd FP and setup.


    Held two clumps of grass over the gun and released. The first headed exactly towards the target, the second veered off a tiny bit to the right. So wind 170-180 off the bullet path (which is NNW).

    Turned and faced the wind, it was not percipitating yet. Took a 2 minute reading with Kestrel 2500NV. 4 low, 7.2 avg, 12 High

    Group 01
    AB said hold 2.8 up ...
    Held 0.5 right, which would be effective 4 mph at 90 degree and my read was 8 at 170.
    Dirt splash was 2 o'clock by 2 inches.
    I thought I was high so I backed off the up hold and held 2.5 up.
    Half a mil is 9 inches so held 1 mil left. Next round was centered left by 2 inches.
    I had heard wind increase but did not react.
    Heard wind die a bit, held 1 mil a again, and 2.5 up. Fired saw splotch appear low right part of target.
    Back to 2.8 up. Held 1 mil fired saw nothing. Held 1 mil fired saw splotch to right of bull.
    Rolled down to target.


    Realized the dirt I was seeing was above the hit, so I have to remember I hit below the dirt. The 2.8 AB hold seems correct for elevation.
    Have to pay attention to the sound of the wind and adjust hold accordingly.
    The frozen rain started while I was at the target.
    It was painful driving back up the hill into the rain. The little "drops" sting when they hit your skin. Had to shield my eyes with my hand while driving the 4 wheeler.

    Group 02
    Measured wind direction with 2 clumps of grass. One veered 10 degrees to the left, the other veered 10 degrees to the right.
    Facing the wind, most of the "drops" seems to be coming right at me, but a tiny few seems to be blowing to my left (facing the wind exactly away from the target).
    So 2.8 up and somewhere between 0.5 and 1.5 mils left.
    On the scope, I could see the frozen rain leaning over to the right and forming 30 degree angle from verticle. This meant 7.5 effeective wind That meant 1.1 hold. But I used the kestrel and the grass toss not the rain read and hold 0.5 I was right of the target by inches.
    I heard the wind come up and held 1.5 left and was inches to the left.
    I held 1.0 mils for the other shots.
    One was high, the others were near the red bull. I could not see those from the FP.


    I am having issues with the rear bag.
    I almost don't shoot prone at all any more (most off tripods or standing unsupported) and it seems like I am starting over again to learn how :D.
    But it caused some NP isses and some high rounds, I think.

    Group 03
    Took another wind reading. No change. First three rounds held 1.0 saw no hits (can't see hits on the bull and there is no sound or clear movement often for 5.56, especially in these conditions). Heard wind go up held 1.2 for last 2 shots, saw splotches.
    Should've held 1.5.


    Thru scope pic, trying to show the percipitation but too much water on the lenses.


    Group 04
    Wind read low 3.7 avg: 5.2 High: 9.7
    So seems to b dropping. Frozen/Rain continues. Can clearly see it through the scope at 30 degree angle.
    First 2 shots were high (I could only see one of them). I adjusted the rear bag to try to improve NP. Second three shots no call (they hit the red area).


    Well, I felt like I had the "range" here, so decided to head over to the other target. I want to practice prone (for Greg's class), so I had to drive past the 700 meter distance and down the hill until I thought maybe I could see the target prone. Dismouted and got down and yes I could see the target from the ground.
    Ranged the target got 599 and 601 meters (a.k.a. 660yds).


    Read the wind. Direction right at the target. Low: 3.9 High 7.8 avg: 5.0
    Looked at the percipitation through the scope.

    It was leaning 10 degrees right so 2.5 mph effective wind. That would indicate 0.5 hold and it turned out that was correct ... but I didn't use it.
    I cheated and tried a sighter.
    AB said hold 4.9 mils up. And 2.0 for 90 degree 10 mph crosswind.
    For the sighter I aimed center of the target for elevation but 4.0 up which should put me right below the target.

    Group 01
    I was just below the target but maybe 6 inches right.
    Not completely trusting the AB "DOPE" yet, I held 4.5 up and 0.5 left based on the sighter ... I fired all 4 remaining rounds and thought I heard 1 "ping".

    The percipitation visible thru the scope was heavy and I tried to take a pic, but it just looks fuzzy.


    The rear of the scope kept getting covered with water. Just before I went out I found 2 McD's brown napkins in one pocket and decided to leave them in there. When the rear lens got covered in water I would fish them out and dab the moisture off the back of the scope. Without those napkins I would've been crippled (or maybe my tee shirt would've worked, but it would've been fun getting that deployed as a rag!

    Group 02
    Could detect no change in conditions, so fired second group with same holds, 4.5 up and
    1.0 left. Thought I could see the bottom of the target "greying up".

    Group 03
    No change in conditions, but decided to hold 4.8 up and 1.0 left.

    Heard 2 barely audible "pings" in this group.

    Rolled down to target, got 14 hits (the first sighter round was in the dirt).


    Summary: Now this is fun! But, no more sighters for wind practice. That makes it too easy. One issue with this small gun is the ammo doesn't move the steel much more than the wind and doesn't make much noise.

    I need a suggestion for a new rear bag. I can't get the current one to work, it is eaither too high (if verticle) or too low (if sideways). Maybe I need a class on rear bags !! :D
    Well, the last three times (and the only three where I've really paid attention) that I could use the mirage, or the percipitation, I would've nailed the wind call. So, going forward, if the mirage or percipitation is giving me a strong clue, I'm going with that.
    The "Rite in the Rain" book and pen worked.
    Now I realize the elevation data in the Shooter is dead on .. I think I have the best data I can get in there ... including solid muzzle velocity and optic center above bore center and it seems to be dead on. No second guessing the shooter.
    Shooting off the side of the hill at 660yds was tougher than it sounds. Not only was I shooting down hill (that wasn't an issue) but the slope of the ground I choose was down hill right to left. I countered by raising the right tripod leg one notch. But my left leg felt like it was 6 inches higher than my right leg.
    But somehow the gun was hardly moving after each shot, so I had good visibility on the target, except for all the precipitation.

  • Hum, I thought I posted this earlier, but maybe I forgot. Anyway, this is the "main" write up of the day match we attended yesterday.


    5 MPH NNE

    Goals: Day Match

    Environment: Clear day with light breeze moving around from N-NNE-NE varying from 4 mph to 8 mph with gusts to 12.

    James: 7.62(16), Radius, 168gr smk, BH load, Bushy LRF
    Joe: 6.5G(18), Horn 123 ELD, Manfrotto

    This was our first ever day match. It was not what we expected :D
    There were approximately 70 shooters. We were divided in 10 sqauds of 6-8 each. Our squad (#4) started with 6 shooters and added one later. Each squad had a squad leader who acted as the RO for that squad, though we were all encouraged to be assistant ROs and we did.
    There was 10 stages. We spent the entire day on top of a hill, with rough at 200yds across hill top. The 10 stages were at roughly 36 degree points around the top of the hill facing outwards. So like we were all on the face of a clock shooting out.
    The various stages had their own sets of targets. All targets were steel, but they were of various unknown sizes, some diamonds, some squares, some hogs, some yotes. The distances were known, from 500yds out to 1600yds.
    Each squad set up at one of the 10 stages and fired that stage, then when all squads were done, all squads shifted clockwise one stage and fired the next stage, that continued for 7 hours, no breaks. Each stage had a nominal 10 rd limit. So in theory you could shoot up to 100yds. James and I had decided before hand, based on the ballistic capabilities of our systems, we would not fire beyond 1000yds.
    I thought this was an ingenious system, allowing 10 squads to shoot simultaneously and to force adjustments by shooters to the wind, which would be coming from all directions as they rotated through the stages.
    In our squad, we were the only shooters with SLRs, everyone else had bolt guns and we got some "comments" :).
    We had requested that our "scores" need not be recorded as we were there to learn not win. But they recorded our scores anyway. By the end of the day within our squads, the 2 leaders had 20 points (you scored one point for each valid hit) and we had 12 points each. James would've beat me, but he got zero hits on the easiet stage and we aren't sure why.
    The people in our squad, said this was the toughest match they had fired out at SPR. And most of them have been coming out there for years and shoot the same caliber and reload their own ammo, so there DOPE is 1000% more solid than ours.
    One guy who scored an 11, complained a lot about this and that and I'm pretty sure his "frustration" factoed into his score. He got some long distance hits at 1200 or so, that I didn't even try with my lack of gun/ammo, but missed a number of easier shots. As one shooter once said, "You bring your misses to the range".

    I tried to focus on wind calling because that's why I went. My happiest moment of the day, was a time when I told James to hold .2 left and low on a particular target, I think that one for 835yds and we were firing across an almost dry lake bed in the center of some low but not unsteep hills.
    I had observed the previous 3 shooters hitting high right on that target, I guessed that 01 - The wind was higher than the expected along the bullet path (is was 4 mph 270 degrees off bullet path from where we were) and that the wind was "lifting" the bullets causing them to hit high.
    James rewarded my guess by getting a first round hit on that target and came over afterwards and thanked me for the call. So that was my happiest moment.

    Overall, now having slept on it, I realize this format is not condusive, to us maximizing our wind shooting skills. We need to be able to proceed at a slower pace and write EVERYTHING down, and that was not possible given the speed at which we were expected to opeate. All shooters were given 3 min time limit for their 10 rds at each stage.
    Also, we were specifically instructed in the safety briefing NOT to call wind for each other and NOT to shoot as a team ... and well ... that is exactly what we came there to do! :D
    So, while this ranch is a great place to shoot, we decided on the way home, we will resume what we've been doing for the past three years and go out there and shoot by ourselves during the "off season" ... which is very possible and lots of fun. And now with all these zillions of targets out there (which they move around all the time), we will have a fabulous range to practice wind calling ... with all the hills around there.
    We think the "pressure" of the competition has value also, but right now, we are prioritizing the long distance wind calling as a higher priority for where we are and our shooting goals.
    But it was a great experience for our first ever rifle competition. James has done some pistol competitions, this was my first competiion period. I'm sure we placed in the bottom 3rd if our scores were counted, but we didn't bring enough rifle/ammo to engage about 1/3rd of the targets, so we only fired about 65 rds a piece.

    (There are three pics of this match above, in an earlier post)

  • 2018-04-08/09

    10 MPH NW

    Goal: dots with .22lr

    Environment: Cool and clear, moderate breeze from 210 off the bullet path. Stars very visible. Orion front and center to the SW.

    Equipment: .22lr, xtr2 1.5-8x cq mil, eley 38gr subsonic, pvs-30

    Activity: 3 sig 10 round mags, one with 8 rds, and two with 5rds each. One NRA dot target.

    Setup at 23 meters.

    First 8 rounds zeroing with 4 x 2rd groups. Mostly low so cranked up 2 clicks.

    Ran the dots starting in the upper left and down the left side, i.e.counter-clockwise.

    Could not see the targets I was aiming at. Had to triangulate based on nearby targets. Will try to get an illuminator going to see if that helps.
    Score: 62/100
    I am scoring based on where the center of the bullet lands, there are other scoring methods.


    10 MPH WNW

    Goal: dots with .22lr

    Environment: Sun to the East in my eyes and washing out the scope on occasion. Breeze 190 off the bullet path.

    Equipment: .22lr, xtr2 1.5-8x cq mil, eley 38gr subsonic

    Activity: Again same magazine layout, 8 rds for zeroing in one mag and 2 mags with 5 rds each. Zeroed. Was mostly high, so clicked down 2 clicks.

    Ran the targets in the same order, starting upper left, counter-clock-wise. Could see the targets today! Main problem was NP, barrel shifting up about 2 rungs on the target.

    Still struggling with the rear bag, unable to get it situated. So putting some down pressure with cheek. Trying to minimize, still not 100%.
    Trying to lay down behind the rifle from standing position. Fall to knees then complete process. Aiming to be aligned with the rifle and the target. At least I'm getting better at how far back to start the fall.
    This exercise is short enough and the travel time also short enough, that I should be able to repeat several times each day.

  • So something I learned yesterday ... reading mirage is sort of like reading precipitation except "backwards"


  • 2018-04-09
    10 MPH NW

    Goal: dots .22LR

    Environment: Sunny, warming, breeze from NW.

    Equipment: .22lr, xtr2 1.5-8x cq mil, eley 38gr subsonic

    Activity: Same mag loadout, 7+5+5

    Zeroed, 6 of the rounds in the one ragged hole above the bull. The last round, I tried to hold an offset to the NP.

    Targets 1, 4, 6, 8, 9 ... I was trying to hold that same offset about a rung and a half low left. It sort of worked. On the backside, 10, 7, 5, 3, 2 ... I added a bit of pressure from the trigger hand and that meant holding the left offset was moving the impact left.


    Score: 84
    But holding offset to NP is "cheating" so need to find/fix the root problem.
    I think the issue is I am applying too much down/right pressure with my jaw on the stock. I can make it "look" good with the rear bag. I can even close my eyes, count to 10 and open them and the center of the reticle does not move off the center of the bull. But, when I fire the round, generally the barrel moves 1.5 rungs up and right.
    Except when I applied offsetting pressure from the trigger hand. Then the barrel just moves up.
    So, I am going to have to remove the jaw pressure. But then I ask "why is it there?"
    All the shooting I did (not much really) before 2013 does not count. That was all iron sights and mostly in the Army. I never shot a scoped rifle until I moved to the country and started buying scoped rifles in early 2013.
    In 2013-15 I did 90% of my shooting prone. In Dec 2015, I got my first manfrotto. Also in Nov 2015, we got ginueas and chickens and I started my "coup patrol" activities. So, since then my percentage of prone shooting has dwindled to almost zero. So, part of the situation is I need to relearn prone. It could be that the jaw pressure comes from managing recoil on the tripods. I shoot mostly 6.5G(18) and .300WM(24) off the tripods. Believe it or not, the 6.5G(18) has more felt recoil, I assume because it is significantly lighter.
    So, next time out, I will try to reduce the jaw pressure and see what happens!

  • Oops ...

    Reading Greg's words ...

    "b. Cheek Weld and Eye Relief
    Cheek weld and eye relief are closely tied together, but eye relief cannot be determined until proper length of pull and cheek weld has been achieved. Once proper length of pull has been achieved, you simply lay your face on the stock at your head's most comfortable and natural position. Do not stretch or scrunch your neck. It must be stress-free and natural. Do this a few times, and completely ignore your scope until you are sure you have a natural position with no tension in your neck. If your eye relief is correct, move on. However, if your eye relief is not correct, then move your optic according to your new stress-free position. The full weight of your head, should be supported by your rifle. The force measurement on your neck should be zero, or as close to it as you can get!"

    So, I am "laying my face on the stock" ... and not "stretching or scrunching my neck" ... but ... that causes down pressure on the stock and there is no offsetting pressure, hence the barrel moves in the opposite direction, up.
    So if the rear bag is supposed to be supplying the offsetting pressure, it is not happening.
    Noodling ...

  • Shooting prone, applies to shooting in other positions... but you can't adhere to the prone science to spite the positional technique.

    They are different, as you've clearly discovered.

    So the rules are simple: Either you find rear support in that position which will support the weight of your head and the rifle, or you float your head.

    Also remember to give weight to the fact that a tripod provides a single point of contact at fulcrum, while prone, you are spread across 3 points, widely distributed. Different program when on a fulcrum. Think on that a bit.

  • 2018-04-09
    10 MPH NW

    Goal: dots .22LR

    Environment: Sunny, warming, breeze from NW.

    Equipment: .22lr, xtr2 1.5-8x cq mil, eley 38gr subsonic

    Activity: Same mag loadout, 5+5+5

    Tried raising up the bipod and getting things a tad more level ... doing rifle NP on the center target on the paper ... but wound up having to lower the right leg back to zero. Left the left leg up 0.5 inches. I am laying on a slope ... this is the FLINT HILLS ... very little totally flat ground around here. The rear bag is in the most upright position and is centered under the rear of the stock.

    Mostly tried squeezing the bag harder, but results to not indicate that helped.

    5 round zero, 4 in the hole above the bull, tried squeezing real hard and that lowered things a bit.

    So, from top left counter clock wise. I even saw the barrel move left once ... didn't see it move several times ... but the main pattern was still up and to the right.


    Score 81/100
    So don't think squeezing the bag harder works. Will try "floating head" ... ICYMI, I am using tab gear bag. But apparently my main problem is my head is too large and heavy !!! :D

  • Have you established a baseline of precision/accuracy in the prone with this 22lr and this specific lot number of ammo?

  • [quote] ... Have you established a baseline of precision/accuracy in the prone with this 22lr and this specific lot number of ammo? ... [/quote]

    Negatif, I would say that is what I am trying to do now. Though I have 40 rds left in current lot, then will be switching to next lot of 500.

  • "A baseline of precision/accuracy in prone."

    The matches I shoot in require the use of a sling but what I learned from Greg's tutorial applies:


    The sequence to rebuild my position for new ammunition (500 rounds minimum) always starts on the bench and then moves to prone, etc.

    Once I am in prone I take the stresses out of my body in a sequence starting with my left hand and ending with my right hand. Visualize a string running from your left index finger all the way to your right index finger with a "W" connecting both feet through your heart. I try to keep my cheek pressure in the middle (fine adjustment later) as I finish building my "zero force firing position" all the way to my right hand (trigger finger).

    Reinforcing the sight picture before and after the shot also gives me feedback as to where residual stress is residing/originating.

    I only use the bag off the bench and mine just happens to be a CMP issued roll filled with dried pinto beans. I can shift the beans around inside the bag and establish a position where all I do is gently (again zero force) squeeze my hand. A theory is that the interlocking beans tend to shift less than sand.

    My notes (e.g. "hips firmly on the deck") allow me to go back and validate how I methodically improved driving the rifle over time.

    "I still pull some, just not quite as far."

  • Yup, I've had that article open, the whole time, reading and re-reading.

    Today, I'll be trying to "float my head" :)

  • @kansas said in Learning to shoot in the Flint Hills of Kansas:

    Yup, I've had that article open, the whole time, reading and re-reading.

    Today, I'll be trying to "float my head" :)

    I've read that article about 15 times. I discussed something with Greg a while back and he referred me to the article and sure enough it was there. I probably should read it just before each time I go to the range.

  • @kansas Just to be clear, I am almost never a proponent of floating your head in the prone position. Though it can be necessary when shooting off a tripod.

  • Aye, aye ... I'm not either but I will experiment to see the effects.

    Any suggestions on a second rear bag to try ?? I see some that come with no contents, so I could try pinto beans.

    I might also try "bones only" just to see if the "heavy head syndrome" shows up there as well.

    And I will change the scope at some point today. I'm pretty sure the xtr2 1.5-8x cq mil scope fixed focus is set at 100yds ... so at 25yds it is fuzzy and makes my eyes water :)

    I see you guys using your TTs out there with these 50yd .22lr dot drills !!! :)

    I am trying to do several things here:

    01 -Improve prone position
    02 - Practice the "position" part of fundamentals
    03 - Prepare for Greg's class and he gives us a hint about the position part with a link to the article
    04 - Work on that 200 rds per week aimed rife fire goal.

  • My favorite rear bag is the tab gear regular bag.

  • Well I think I happen to have a TAB GEAR bag that I'm using. Not sure if it is a "Regular" ...


  • Looks like it.

    If you can't shoot with it, you can't shoot with anything. ;)

  • Well here is pic of the .22LR as I have been shooting it for the above dots ... except it has a harris 6-9 on the front ...


    And here is this mornings redo ... with the L&S 6.5-20x TMR ffp on top ... this gives adjustable parallax, better glass and more magnification. We will see if any of that matters.

    And this stock might not be the greatest "precision" stock :D ... but it is what it is.


  • I would be willing to bet that you're being limited by that rifle's capabilities. True rimfire practice is going to require an excellent rifle with excellent ammo. Otherwise there is usually just too much white noise.

  • Probably true, but I still suspect the semi-consistent "up and to the left" movement of the barrel is a ME issue. So want to continue down the road of diagnosing. And I like trouble shooting. :)

  • BTW, that's a CMMG .22LR upper .. I got about 2 years ago, based on a suggestion from a guy named "Greg" :D (in the content of night ratting)
    The lower is a spikes, mil spec trigger ...

    And for its primary purpose this setup has been fine. I normally use it for ratting at night with a small thermal on top ...



    But I have not been using this rifle for short distance fundamentals. Mostly night ratting, opossum, coons and day tree rats ...


  • Ad this is my third .22lr (in recent decades) ... and where it really shines over the others ... is reliability. I purposely did not clean this rifle for almost 9 months, I wanted to wait for it to mis-feed ... around 900 rds ... the combo of the upper and the sig mags are amazingly reliable, compared to previous experience. Finally, in sub-zero temps, I had some fail to feeds ... and cleaned the rifle and the issue was resolved.

  • @kansas said in Learning to shoot in the Flint Hills of Kansas:

    BTW, that's a CMMG .22LR upper .. I got about 2 years ago, based on a suggestion from a guy named "Greg" :D (in the content of night ratting)
    The lower is a spikes, mil spec trigger ...

    I'm sure I probably mentioned that it will be great for blasting things... but will have limitations regarding precision. ;)