Copper Creek Disappoints
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So...as some of you might know I have a 22 cm barrel in the works. I decided a few months ago that I was going to order this barrel so I went ahead and ordered a box of 100 Alpha 22 cm brass from copper creek when they were selling it. I noticed when I received it that it looked like it had been chamfered on a giuard trimmer, but didn't think much else about it.
A few days ago I sent 10 pieces to Greg to do some testing for me with my new barrel and fire form some brass so that I can order dies. This step right here saved me MUCH frustration. Greg noticed right away that the run out on the brass was horrible and that the chamfer was not even all the way around. After he mentioned it I went back and looked at the other 90 and sure enough they are the same way. They have anywhere from 0.008" to 0.015" runout on the neck and that runout is reflected in the chamfer. Some of them are so bad that it can be seen rolling them on the bench.
Please ignore the 21st century gauge. It will have to stay on my bench till Greg invents something better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCMbo9Z_ef0&feature=youtu.beI bought them at copper creek...so I emailed copper creek and clearly explained my problem. After 2-3 back and forth emails copper creek was still blaming my bushing die for the runout. Hmmm...so I very clearly stated for a 4th time that the runout is present on untouched brass...not anything I have sized. Josh from copper creek then responded that they had done testing with runout and have determined that up to 0.050" runout is not a problem and will still hold moa to 1000 yards.
I hoped that something was lost in translation through written word...so I called them this morning and talked to "Josh"...the same one who had been corresponding through email. I once again explained my problem to which Josh brought up the bushing dies again. I asked what steps they had taken with the brass before sending it to me. Josh replied, "it is brand new brass". I got more direct and asked, "did you run these through a bushing sizer before sending them to me?" and Josh said that they did. I then asked if they chamfered them as well and he replied that they did.
So now I am beginning to get the correct picture of the story behind this brass. Alpha manufactured it and sent it to copper creek. Copper creek apparently thought they would "help me out"...and likely other customers, by running brand new brass through a bushing die and giuard trimmer. In the processes the brass was ruined.
So I asked Josh at copper creek, "what should I do then?" and he responded, "if you don't like the brass then throw it away." ....HMMM... So I then push him. I tell him that the brass was bushing sized by them to which he admitted that the bushing sizing likely caused the runout. I told him, "you caused this problem...are you going to make it right?". Only then did he tell me to send it back and he would refund me for only the cost of the brass. Not initial shipping. Not return shipping. He then said that they sold 14,000 pieces of this brass and I was the only one who had a problem with it.
Now...this is not copper creek brass. This is alpha brass. Thanks to Greg, Alpha gets wind of what has happened and promptly tells me that 100 new brass will be headed my way just as soon as they finish the next batch. In the box will be a shipping label to return the 100 pieces that are not correct. This is how business should be run. Copper creek is most likely the one that messed up this brass, but Alpha is making it right to keep a customer.
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I've been testing Alpha brass pretty extensively over the last 6 months. They've been a fantastic company to deal with and have proven they can produce a superb product. I do not believe for one singular second that they would send product out in this condition. This had to have happened after it left alpha and before it got to @dddoo7.
@tpk936 do you by chance have any of your 22 creedmoor alpha brass you got from copper creek that hasn't been touched, new in box?
There's a local guy that I think got a box or two from that batch. I'm going to see if he has some of it untouched yet. Somehow I can't believe 14,000 pieces went out the door and only @dddoo7's 100 pieces were like this.
This chamfer makes this brass very difficult to recover. You'd need to see 25-35 thousandths of growth before you'd be able to trim that chamfer off.
For copper creek to treat you as they did here... is inexcusable.
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@dddoo7
I’m glad alpha is making it right for you. My question and likely alphas question too is why in the hell is copper creek running the brass through anything? If I were alpha I’d be pissed, cause you could have very easily mistaken the defects as alpha quality control. They are pushing hard to compete with and surpass Lapua, the last thing they need if some vendor ruining their product then sending it out to customers
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@orkan I do not. I have struggled with the copper creek brass. Some shot well others did not. In my RRT thread you can see the difference between the brass. I have had the best success with peterson 6 creed srp necked down. I am on back order with Alpha for some more 22 creed brass. In the meantime I have some Alpha 6 creed srp brass on its way. I would have ordered more peterson but they are out. I have some Copper and peterson loaded for this weekend. May explain why I still am struggling and cannot get consistency. I will roll on my gauge.
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@tpk936 said:
May explain why I still am struggling and cannot get consistency. I will roll on my gauge.
After firing the virgin copper creek brass and sizing it, Runout went down to about 3-4 thousandths. Still not great, but at least it straightened up some. By the 2nd firing/sizing cycle it was down to normal levels in the .0015 level. Though that doesn't fix the horrific chamfer.
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@orkan I have a question in reference to my whidden sizing die. If I sent them once fired brass to build die and I had runout in my brass would it also show up in the resizing die?
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@tpk936 Typically not.
So I checked with that local guy that had some of the same batch from copper creek. It would appear that my suspicions were correct. Every box, all 500pcs he has, is mutilated.
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@orkan After this story I will be paying closer attention to brass when I receive. I have never inspected just started loading it. Another lesson. I have some Alpha 6cm srp coming should be delivered tomorrow. I am glad I only bought 100 pieces from copper creek.
My next question would be why is copper creek even touching this brass? If it is 22cm brass why do they need to run it through a bushing die.
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@tpk936 said:
why is copper creek even touching the brass?
THIS!
I can see the bushing ring on those brass too. I bet they have horrible run out too!
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Well hopefully Alpha will start selling it to other vendors. If Copper Creek keeps doing that stuff their reputation will suffer. (Or it might not, I have a feeling in other forums this post would be going down way differently)
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I am assuming they want to differentiate themselves from other venders by sizing and chamfering.
Oh, looks like they have...
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Several months ago, when I heard the 22 creedmoor brass was coming out from Alpha, I was surprised when I had seen a social media post that I thought I had read that was going to be exclusively releasing through Copper Creek(CC). It didn't make much sense to me at the time for their business model (and still doesn't completely) because I had seen several other cartridges available direct from the Alpha site.
After coming across this thead, I went back to find the post(shown below) which may only be suggesting that the larger 500 pc boxes were available through CC, if I'm interpreting this correctly?
However, when referencing Alpha's website, their drop down options have both 100ea & 500ea options, neither or which are "active" due to stock availability, but a bit confusing none the less given the social media post?
The reason I share this though, is I'm wondering if at any point did @orkan or @dddoo7 confirm what the the neck diameter was originally when Alpha sent the '22 creed stamped brass to CC? I almost wonder if it was Alpha's 6mm creedmoor sized brass, but head stamped with the 22 creedmoor marking, for CC to make the final neck sizing( & chamfer) as many handloading consumers would do?
This would answer the question of, "why they touched it." and does not seem like wild speculation to me because:
a)CC does a lot of these handloading operations that some shooters do not like to spend time with
b)If the newer offering sold well it could have validated a smaller trial run for Alpha to get the final tooling to size the 22 creedmoor brass 'fully' in-house?Perhaps I am way off base, and I'm not trying to miss-spread info about two companies in the industry.
Below, is another post from Alpha, which is marketing the design of the 6mm Creedmoor as, "not ,simply a necked down 6.5'," which would probably go against my speculation above.
So again, I could be way off, but thought I would share for those experiencing problems.
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Even if that were true, it does not excuse introducing 10 to 16 thousandths of runout and butchering the case mouths with a horrific chamfer. Nor does it excuse the treatment @dddoo7 received when trying to get closure on the problem.
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Here is what Bob from Alpha has said:
I hope all is well. I am not sure which brass you received from Copper Creek as they have necked down our brass to 22 Creedmoor and sold our 22 Creedmoor brass. Our 22 Creedmoor is not simply necked down 6mm.
As always, contact me with any questions.
Best,
Bob
