I'm never recommending 21st century reloading again.



  • I don't know how many of you have neck turning kits or concentricity gauges from 21st century based on my recommendation... but my support of that company ends right now. I know I've recommended a lot of you go there, and I'm sorry for that. I had no idea how they treat my customers there.

    I had a customer call for a CPS, our priming tool, and he asked about shell holders. I've always recommended lee, 21st century, and Sinclair when asked this question.

    So the customer calls up 21st century to buy shell holders. The guy he talks to says "what are you buying these shell holders for?" Customer says "My Primal Rights priming tool." 21st century says "I can't help you... good luck." My customer called me back, dumbfounded, and we found him the sinclair and lee shellholders he needed.

    What in the absolute fuck? Is someone a little insecure about how their priming tools stack up against the CPS? lol I bought a couple 21st century priming tools. If I was happy with them, the CPS wouldn't exist. So, no longer am I going to recommend products from that company. To treat someone trying to buy something the way he did, one of MY customers?!?!?!?! Inexcusable.

    I have over a thousand dollars of neck turning equipment from that guy as well as a concentricity gauge. They are headed straight into the trash. If a suitable replacement doesn't exist, I'll invent something BETTER and crush them in that market too.

    All over a couple bucks in shell holders. Astonishing. Someone didn't think this shit out very well before treating my customers with that level of disrespect after I recommended he go there.



  • Surely they aren’t acting that way cause of the CPS. Comparing the CPS to one of their primer tools is like comparing a top fuel dragster to a 4 banger. I don’t even see the CPS being competition to them because it’s in two completely different leagues. True colors shining bright



  • Good to know. Thanks.

    Good products are rare.

    Good customer service is rare.

    Good products coupled with good customer service almost don’t exist.

    BTW—when you invent tools...I’ll take one of each.



  • We just this past week had a similar incident in my business. For those that don't know, I have been in the high-performance motorcycle business for about 20 years, and we have evolved to the point where all I really do is specialize in high-end data acquisition and engine management systems on high-end race bikes.

    So we have been sending some of our customers for the past 2 or 3 years to this other business to do some of the work (metal fabrication specifically) that we don't really have time to do any more. The owner is young and does good work, so we started helping him out. Recently, he decided to try and also get into the engine management business with a different brand of electronics, putting himself in competition with us. Or at least he has a fantasy that he is somehow competing with us. This is no big deal, until we found out that he has been going around trying to undercut us, badmouth us, and just be a general sleaseball. That mistake will cost him dearly.

    We contacted every one of our customers with work at his shop and told them what was going on. Every single one of them cancelled every job at his shop. Our customers are loyal, because they know what we give them can't be easily found anywhere else. Now this kid is going to lose a lot of money over his poor behavior, driven strictly from a point of jealousy, because he will never, ever get another penny of work sent to him by us.

    Much like Greg, I have spent a lot of my life and personal money learning what I know. And there is no way it can be learned by anyone else without a similar lifetime investment. Also like Greg, I am one of a very few people that have the knowledge and experience doing what I do, and I am one of the best there is. I am not bragging when I say that, it is just a hard-earned fact. This kid wants to be the man, but he doesn't want to earn it the right way. He instead thought he could try and make himself look better by making his competition look worse. He just learned an expensive life lesson.



  • @dddoo7 said:

    BTW—when you invent tools...I’ll take one of each.

    Ramiro passes Daniel $10 under the table and whispers (hey, save one for me, don't tell Greg) Hahaha!



  • Any of you have this one?

    Accuracy-One-Concentricity-Gauge_Detail.jpg



  • I do. You recommended when trying to sort out 22cm issues. Works fine for me but I do not have the level of expertise you have. I could always send to you to test.



  • I been eyeballing that one for a couple years now. Looks to me like the best set up available right now



  • Yeah, it wasn't in stock when I bought mine... I've had about half dozen concentricity tools and that one seems to be the best right now.

    I'll have to get one ordered. I wish it were reversed. It's setup more for lefties. I wonder if it can be switched around.



  • @orkan from what I understand it can be everything is held in place by high strength magnets on a rail so it’s fully adjustable. I saw a video of a guy chevk 22 lr ammo with it



  • @bull81 What about the wheel though? The wheel doesn't look very reversible.



  • @orkan I could be wrong but I think it is as well. It will flip over the other direction when not in use so if you put it on the right side it would be in the operating position. That’s my understanding though I’ve never seen one in person so take that for what it’s worth. If you get one I’d be very interested in your thoughts after using it.



  • I can look at it tonight and take photos.



  • @tpk936 Thanks!



  • @orkan I have one and just reversed the roller. The wheel and knurled knob are held on the axle pin by flush allen screws which aren't visible in the photo.
    The problem with only reversing the wheel, without also moving the support arm to the right side of the base is that the wheel rides too close to the left edge of the base.
    The arm that holds the wheel assembly is attached by two machine screws into the rear edge of the base.
    This could be relocated to the right side of the base by drilling and tapping the steel base, which would allow the wheel to be reversed.

    I'm right handed and turning the knob with my left hand has never been awkward. The diameter of the wheel causes the cartridge to rotate multiple times in relation to the knob. The angle that the wheel is mounted on causes the cartridge to move left as it rotates keeping it against the removable stop pin that is visible in the photo.
    Mine came with a Mitutoyo 513-402-10 dial indicator with .0005" graduations. (https://ecatalog.mitutoyo.com/Dial-Test-Indicators-SERIES-513-Horizontal-Type-C1258.aspx). I don't recall if that was optional.

    The only issues I've had involved the rubber O-ring on the wheel which became brittle and cracked after a couple of years, and the nylon adjusting screws, one of which broke.
    One phone call and the company sent 3 of each free of charge. My experience with this tool and the company has been good.



  • I could rig that arm up on a sliding rail with a little thumb screw real easy.

    I see a number of design improvements I could make on this tool.



  • I've seen this tool before, and don't understand why the wheel is needed to turn the case. Is it just easier than spinning the case by hand?



  • When you press on the case with your fingers, you can't roll a complete rev very easy without changing the pressure on the case, which changes the reading.

    The wheel "gears" the case so you spin it more revs without as much movement, and with more uniform pressure.



  • @orkan You're onto something. The base is steel. The pieces that hold the cartridge and dial indicator are held in place by strong (rare earth?) magnets. The arm holding the wheel assembly could probably be held in place the same way.



  • Pics of Accuracy one
    TshQgJV.jpg
    pic from front.
    2yS2sJF.jpg
    pic of back
    92y5zx2.jpg
    close up pic of back and what connects arm to base.
    I am right handed and I am able to work this without issue.
    Hope pics help.



  • I could put a "clamp" on that arm very easily... allowing me to put it anywhere I want on that base. :)

    Thanks for the pics @tpk936



  • @orkan When you make a gauge, I will be on that list. Was looking at the 21st a while ago...



  • I have the accuracy one gauge too.

    The wheel is kinda on an angle so the case gets pulled to the rear of the rollers making for a very consistent measurement. It’s a great feature.

    I’m not sure how you’d go about maintaining that feature if it’s on a rail but if you’re taking suggestions I think you should keep that.

    Also I have beef with the way the indicator attaches. I can upload pictures to demonstrate if you’re interested.



  • @tackyp said:

    Also I have beef with the way the indicator attaches. I can upload pictures to demonstrate if you’re interested.

    Definitely.



  • Q4xFcf9.jpg
    This first picture is just to give you an idea of the geometry of the indicator in question and the piece it fits into. The screw on the side secures the indicator into the fixture and the long one adjusts the tilt of the fixture.
    g3VIWX5.jpg
    This is the indicator in the fixture from the rear. Due to to shape of the indicator and the spacing on the rails you have to push the indicator to the front and tip it down to be able to measure smaller cases/cartridges. Because of the position of the side screw, it just barely catches the bottom of the indicator, which results in it being held "crooked" in the fixture. It may be difficult to see here but its cocked slightly to the left.
    9CW2hAk.jpg
    This is the indicator and fixture from the side. As you can see the "hinge" is fully "closed" and the indicator isn't touching the case (just barely). The only solution is to tip the indicator forward more, but then the screw catches on the dovetail, which causes the indicator to cock more.
    07PC3qi.jpg
    This is the front view. Still haven't moved anything. The hinge is held shut by a powerful magnet. On larger cases the vertical thumbscrew opens the hinge to allow adjustment of the indicator down onto the case. In this application it works well.

    I don't know much about engineering but I think the best way to fix this would be to either cut the groove the indicator fits into at an angle, so the indicator can sit flush against the bottom while also positioning the tip of the indicator down. The user would then open the hinge with the screw to make room for cases to be inserted into the rollers.

    If I was unclear about something let me know and I'll try to clear it up. Or if you need more photos with different angles or cases.

    Also, I have a friend with the 21st century neck lathe. Let me know if you ever plan to redesign that, and I'll get pictures too.



  • @tackyp said:

    Let me know if you ever plan to redesign that, and I'll get pictures too.

    I won't be redesigning any of them. I'm starting from scratch to create something better in every respect. You'll notice my priming tool doesn't look like anyone else's. ;)



  • @orkan Will your design allow you to correct the run-out / concentric?



  • @tpk936 I'm presently conflicted about that.



  • That guy at Century 21 was pretty short sighted. His behavior is disappointing. Unfortunately I bought his gauge and case turning setup some time ago after I found out Orkan had one.



  • @martino1

    ALOT of people (myself included) have 21st century at orkan’s recommendation. And the thing is a lot more would in the future as well. Yet they cut their own throat over a priming tool. When a business treats people right, customers notice and will recommend them. When a business treats the wrong person dirty, then they will lose a lot of business due to word of mouth.



  • @dddoo7 said:

    @martino1

    ALOT of people (myself included) have 21st century at orkan’s recommendation. And the thing is a lot more would in the future as well. Yet they cut their own throat over a priming tool. When a business treats people right, customers notice and will recommend them. When a business treats the wrong person dirty, then they will lose a lot of business due to word of mouth.

    Yeah... I think he picked the wrong person as you say to tick off. Greg's growing following has some buying power. Clearly a fact Mr. 21 Century did not consider that. His short view of customer service should show up in his bottom line fairly quickly.


 

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