New Load Testing Help
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Hey guys, wanted to make sure I was reading my test loads right today.
I shot the lowest charge first. Thats the group on the far left. Then shot each group moving to the right. I did adjust the scope to bring my groups up after the first group as well.
I have very little vertical spread on 41.8-42.6, but whats weird is how much horizontal spread I have in the 42.2 group. With how well the high charge of 42.6 shot I'm pretty much set on going with that. Is the horizontal spread stricly from me? I don't feel that I shot that group any different than the other groups. This was also the first day I shot with my muzzle brake. But I shot some of my other proofed loads first to confirm everything was okay.
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For my own edification what was the wind like?
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None to barely any lol
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@norcal_in_az To me it looks like the 42.6 is into a node, the 41.4 start-42.2 look to be a scatter node.
Look from 42.3-4 up and past the 42.6 to get the width of the node.
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The test would be worth a lot more if it were shot in round.
Shoot one shot in each group low to high...then shoot another shot in each group high to low. Repeat until you have five shots in each group.
Heat does crazy things to a rifle barrel. Therefore by the third or fourth group you have introduced another variable that was not present for the first few groups...and it is a variable that gets exponentially worse as the heat rises (in my rifles at least).
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@dddoo7 said:
The test would be worth a lot more if it were shot in round.
Shoot one shot in each group low to high...then shoot another shot in each group high to low. Repeat until you have five shots in each group.
Heat does crazy things to a rifle barrel. Therefore by the third or fourth group you have introduced another variable that was not present for the first few groups...and it is a variable that gets exponentially worse as the heat rises (in my rifles at least).
I didn't shoot all the groups back to back. I made sure to let the barrel cool between groups.
I'm thinking of doing 3 more groups. 42.3, 42.6, and 42.9. I'll make sure to shoot em snake style.
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@dddoo7 said:
The test would be worth a lot more if it were shot in round.
Shoot one shot in each group low to high...then shoot another shot in each group high to low. Repeat until you have five shots in each group.
I used to think and do this very thing. Then I discovered how hard it is to maintain NPA and have the rifle truly be recoiling the same way every time. After that discovery, I made it a point to shoot my 3-shot strings all together, without breaking cheek weld. My testing became a lot more valuable afterward. It is much easier to simply let the barrel cool between groups, than to get shot 1, 2, and 3 to have the most exact same NPA after getting up off the rifle 12-20 times through a load development session.
There's definitely a node centered around 42.2. The horizontal stringing can be caused by a number of factors. Most often it is trigger manipulation as pertains to NPA. Yet when you compared 41, 41.4, and 41.8 you can clearly see an upward POI trend that is indicative of a node coming on. The stringing is most possibly a different issue, which could be caused by shooting form, or that specific component combination. Sometimes changing primers, neck tension, seating depth, or other variables can help tighten it up if it is not shooter-induced.
Another good point is to remember that initial OCW testing is very rough, and the numbers of rounds are not quite statistically significant enough to draw real conclusions. That first batch is designed to get you in the ballpark, so to speak. I'd load up a batch of seating depth variables at the 42.2gr mark and try to hone in on that a bit. Also remember that Gunhive has a full OCW range report template which you can use to track and share the results of your testing. :)
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@orkan
@norcal_in_az said:I shot the lowest charge first. Thats the group on the far left. Then shot each group moving to the right. I did adjust the scope to bring my groups up after the first group as well.
This was also the first day I shot with my muzzle brake. But I shot some of my other proofed loads first to confirm everything was okay.
Orkan, I don't see the upward trend as norcal adjusted his scope to bring the POI up. I would have expected a node @ the 41.7 -42.2 neighborhood but to me it looks like it shifted further out, maybe due to the new muzzle brake?
As to the OCW method shooting each group without breaking position, I started doing that also and saw less shooter era in my groups. I do shoot the groups round robin style not necessarily low to high or high to low.
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@mamalukino said:
@orkan
Orkan, I don't see the upward trend as norcal adjusted his scope to bring the POI up.Whoops! I read over that part. Thank you for the correction.
Yeah, adjusting the scope during an OCW is a sure fire way to invalidate the testing. That's a bad idea.
Assuming for a minute that the group locations tracked with the scope adjustments... and all the groups would have landed dead even with each other vertically, then you are as tuned as you are going to get for that specific charge weight.
If you install a brake, it most usually is going to affect your loads to some degree. However, without a baseline, it's impossible to determine what the root cause of your groups having horizontal stringing is. As I mentioned, most often it is trigger manipulation/NPA concerns. Yet in this case, obviously the muzzle was just recently worked with. If someone botched the brake install, that could certainly affect the rifle's ability to shoot well. Even if done correctly, the brake could have completely changed the harmonics on the rifle to the point where you are well outside the node now. I've personally experienced 178 Amax's not shooting well a few different times, so it could simply be the bullets. Is it a known quality of brass? Could be a different lot of any of the components causing this.
Lets try to slow down a second and take things from the beginning.
What has been the accuracy/precision you've seen from that rifle before?
Was anything else changed other than the brake install?
Was the barrel removed during the brake install?
If so, was the recoil lug put back where it was originally?
Were the tenon threads cleaned up? Barrel tenon shoulder touched at all?
Most certainly the action was removed from the stock at the very least... Is the stock bedded?Lets get the answers to those questions first, and then we'll move down the list if we don't run into a hit.
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It's been a solid 3/4-1 MOA shooter. I can usually stack 3-4 shots out of 5.
The barrel was not removed from the action, and the action is bedded. The scope was also removed, but I re-zeroed it with other loads before shooting these.
I didn't realize adjusting the scope between groups was a bad idea. I won't do that again. I also know what's next on my list of things to buy, a new trigger.
Here's a pic of two groups I shot with my old proofed loads and the muzzle brake. Top is a 5 shot, bottom is 3.
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That top 5 shot group is horizontally strung, with one way outside.
The group on the bottom is vertically strung.
There is definitely either shooter issues, rifle issues, ammo issues, or all three present. It will be quite tough for you to zero in on a load with that kind of performance. I would recommend trying a different projectile or different powder. Factory barrels tend to be quite finicky. They often can shoot quite well, but it's usually only with a very specific selection of components.
Try some different brass while you are at it. Buy yourself a box of laupa brass. Buy some varget. Buy some 175SMK's. Start with 41gr and work your way up to safe pressure.
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Thanks for the insight and advice Greg and everyone else. I stopped by Bruno's shooting supply today and spoke with someone there. They pretty much said the same thing as you. Its good, but to get better, spend the money and go with Lapua brass, etc, etc.
So that being said, I am going to do the buy once cry once deal. I'm just going to save up my lunch money and buy it when I can. I think what I'll do for now is do another round of testing in the 42.6 area, see if I can get similar results. If I can, I'll load up the rest of the A-Max bullets I have, using the 3 pounds of 4064 I have. I'm going to work on me, and making sure I'm shooting very consistent, for the time being. Then when I spend the money on better components I will know if they make a difference or not.
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Send me a chat or an email with your real name, address, phone number, and email addy. I'll send you some brass and a few bullets. Powder and primers will be on you... but you should be able to find a 1lb'er of Varget or H4895 laying around a gun store somewhere. Grab a sleeve of CCI-200 primers while you are at it.
Lets just see if there's potential there before you go throwing your hard earned lunch money at things that aren't going to solve the problem. Factory rem700 barrels just aren't really capable of much more than 3/4MOA real easy. Some rare specimens on the 5R rifles are 1/4-1/3moa but most are 1/2moa guns, with the SPS's and "varmint" rifles doing a bit worse.
I'll send you some stuff to monkey with, and if you can't get it behaving, then you'll know you need to save your lunch money to send to Travis rather than buy more components. ;)
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@orkan said:
Send me a chat or an email with your real name, address, phone number, and email addy. I'll send you some brass and a few bullets. Powder and primers will be on you... but you should be able to find a 1lb'er of Varget or H4895 laying around a gun store somewhere. Grab a sleeve of CCI-200 primers while you are at it.
Lets just see if there's potential there before you go throwing your hard earned lunch money at things that aren't going to solve the problem. Factory rem700 barrels just aren't really capable of much more than 3/4MOA real easy. Some rare specimens on the 5R rifles are 1/4-1/3moa but most are 1/2moa guns, with the SPS's and "varmint" rifles doing a bit worse.
I'll send you some stuff to monkey with, and if you can't get it behaving, then you'll know you need to save your lunch money to send to Travis rather than buy more components. ;)
Wow thanks. I'll take you up on that offer for sure.
I do have a full pound and a open one of Varget already. I just went to 4064 because it was easier to find when the shelves we're empty. The CCI's will be no problem to get.
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nor cal, out of curiosity I ask, what position and surface were you shooting from and what was supporting the rifle? Was this with the Harris and have you changed the feet?
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Off a cement bench at Ben Avery. I was using the Harris and my rear bag. The new feet should be here today.
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I ask, because I have had that same type of horizontal spreading using both my Harris and my Accu tac shooting off a concrete deck. The rubber is noticeably harder than the Atlas. I think that this may have been a contributing factor and I am curious as to how re-shooting this with the new parts will result.
I have had very good results with IMR4064 but I can't find Varget here to compare. I wish it was readily available to test it out.
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@mamalukino said:
I ask, because I have had that same type of horizontal spreading using both my Harris and my Accu tac shooting off a concrete deck. The rubber is noticeably harder than the Atlas. I think that this may have been a contributing factor and I am curious as to how re-shooting this with the new parts will result.
Tons of wisdom in that post.
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Figured this was as good of place as any to post this question...
I picked up a universal decaping die. So when I go to FL size my brass after I clean em, do I still need/want to use the expander ball?
Also bought a set of case head space gauges so I can measure how much I'm setting my brass back finally.
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@norcal_in_az said:
Figured this was as good of place as any to post this question...
I picked up a universal decaping die. So when I go to FL size my brass after I clean em, do I still need/want to use the expander ball?
Also bought a set of case head space gauges so I can measure how much I'm setting my brass back finally.:thumbsup:
Yes, decapper only knocks out the primer. You will not need the decapping pin on the full length size die but you will need the expander unless you are neck sizing.
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@mamalukino said:
@norcal_in_az said:
Figured this was as good of place as any to post this question...
I picked up a universal decaping die. So when I go to FL size my brass after I clean em, do I still need/want to use the expander ball?
Also bought a set of case head space gauges so I can measure how much I'm setting my brass back finally.:thumbsup:
Yes, decapper only knocks out the primer. You will not need the decapping pin on the full length size die but you will need the expander unless you are neck sizing.Sounds good, thanks.
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Yup, most factory dies way under size the neck.
Take the expander out once and measure it.
So unless it's custom ground or you're using bushings you'll be expanding the neck with your bullet, not ideal.
But if you have a custom ground die, or are using bushings, then you have to keep a close eye on your neck thickness as that will change the neck tension.
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Here is what I am doing; I decap with a Lee Universal decapping die, I clean the brass with a wet solution of water, laundry detergent and lemon juice, takes about 15 minutes, rinse well, then set the brass aside to dry.
I put them in handgun cartridge plastic trays I pickup (for free :smiley: )from time to time at the range, mouth down and blow the water out of the primer pocket and flash hole. Let them dry overnight, in AZ they will be dry in about 30 minutes (LOL. maybe).
I clean the primer pockets then FL size using a Redding Body die and then I neck size using the Lee collet die. The Lee die uses a mandrel that has a decapping pin on it, but it does 2 things, it will decap (I do not use it for that), but more importantly it alines the flash hole and the mouth of the case as the mandrel floats.
Usually there is no need to trim unless you want to trim to the shortest piece for uniformity.
I then tumble in a vibratory tumbler with a mix of 1/2 corn and half walnut.
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I'm going to track my process through this thread, since its going already.
I've gotten the Lapua Brass and 178g Sierra Match Kings from Orkan. I found some CCI 200's today and already had some Varget. I bumped back the shoulders about .002-.003. The charges will be 42.0, 42.4, 42.8, 43.2, 43.6, and 44.0. I'm going to load up some test rounds for these and see how they do. I also went ahead and loaded up 15 more rounds of the 178 Amax bullets in my Federal brass and Winchester primers to see if I can get better results out of those. I went with 42.4, 42.6, 42.8. I'm going to shoot both of these test rounds on Friday.
I'm just going to load all these rounds to 2.800 COAL, so they fit in the magazine. The last Amax rounds I set way out of the case to sit closer to the lands. I hoping that these don't over pressure now because of setting them back in. This way I can cycle the bolt without coming up off my NPA. I will also not be testing these rounds off the bench. I'm going to go prone in the dirt so I don't have as much jump.
I've been also refining my reloading process. I picked up a universal decapping die, a lube pad, and the Hornady shoulder gauges. All these little things really help. Its amazing what a simple little tool can do for you.
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@norcal_in_az said:
I've gotten the Lapua Brass and 178g Sierra Match Kings from Orkan.
175SMK... Sierra doesn't make a 178. Just a little clarity for some folks that might think I had some new magic bullets or something. ;)
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Alright Norcal, good shootin' to you.:thumbsup:
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Opps typo. lol
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Not to
@mamalukino said:
I clean the primer pockets then FL size using a Redding Body die and then I neck size using the Lee collet die. The Lee die uses a mandrel that has a decapping pin on it, but it does 2 things, it will decap (I do not use it for that), but more importantly it alines the flash hole and the mouth of the case as the mandrel floats.
So not to go too far off NorCals topic in this thread, but is the net result of using the redding body die and the lee collet the same as using a standard F/L die?
I've considered getting the redding body and neck dies and doing my F/L sizing in two seperate steps if its the same thing.
As of now I'm using a forster F/L dies which way undersize the neck. .240 OD on .223, then it gets expanded up to .249 IIRC. I need to have them honed out.
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@ragnarnar said:
Not to
@mamalukino said:
I clean the primer pockets then FL size using a Redding Body die and then I neck size using the Lee collet die. The Lee die uses a mandrel that has a decapping pin on it, but it does 2 things, it will decap (I do not use it for that), but more importantly it alines the flash hole and the mouth of the case as the mandrel floats.
So not to go too far off NorCals topic in this thread, but is the net result of using the redding body die and the lee collet the same as using a standard F/L die?
Quick answer is yes, to me advantage is you are not stretching the case neck by pulling the expander through and the Lee collet dies have shown themselves to minimize case runout.
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@ragnarnar said:
Not to
@mamalukino said:
I clean the primer pockets then FL size using a Redding Body die and then I neck size using the Lee collet die. The Lee die uses a mandrel that has a decapping pin on it, but it does 2 things, it will decap (I do not use it for that), but more importantly it alines the flash hole and the mouth of the case as the mandrel floats.
So not to go too far off NorCals topic in this thread, but is the net result of using the redding body die and the lee collet the same as using a standard F/L die?
I do not think it is the same. On a regular FL die the brass only has one way to go; out the top. When you neck size/body size in two steps, it can push the brass down. It's not as bad as neck sizing only, but it's not as good as a custom FL die either.
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I was looking at net result, you will end up with a fully sized case.
Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I also prefer the collet neck sizer to the bushing as the collet will not allow a donut to form at case neck shoulder junction, or am I mistaken?
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The collets don't push as much material down as the neck bushings do, but it's still not as good as a properly sized FL die. :+1:
Given the choice between the neck bushings and a collet, I'd probably say the collet is the way to go. There are other considerations there too. ;)
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Thanks...:ok_hand:
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So went out shooting yesterday and had a pretty good day. With the help of Gunguy I hit a 12" target at 920 yards and was having some close misses. So that was good to find out that my setup is working well beyond the 300 yards and in I normally shoot.
The one bad thing...I made up some more 4064/Amax rounds, but this time I set the bullet in to mag length. Well I shot one round, and while it was right on target, the case damn near blew apart. The case cracked all around the base, right where the FL die stops working the case. I also had a huge ejector swipe. So those rounds need to be pulled.
While my groups aren't super impressive, I do see a direct improvement on the groups as the charge went up. I'm also now sold on the value of Lapua brass. After that case cracking and the fact that my primer pockets feel loose after 3 firings on that FGMM brass, I can tell the difference in the Lapua.
So my plan right now...buy 100 pieces of Lapua brass and switch to the CCI primers. I'm going to go ahead and try the 178 Amax bullets with 4064 in the Lapua brass, because well I have em. I'm also going to try another round of resting with the SMK 175's and Varget to see if I can fine tune that node. I'm also thinking of not playing with seating depth a whole lot because of the factory chamber. I don't mind single loading, but breaking my NPA to reload is a PITA.
(disclaimer, I've had a few beers or more so if any of this doesn't make sense, thats why lol)
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Hey Norcal, that 43.2-.6 looks like there is a node in the neighborhood. Maybe 43.4-5
Good choice on the Lapua Brass and I really wish I could have been out there with you folks.
Sure do miss AZ.
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Setting the bullet back further in the case can result in over pressure.
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@mamalukino said:
Hey Norcal, that 43.2-.6 looks like there is a node in the neighborhood. Maybe 43.4-5
Good choice on the Lapua Brass and I really wish I could have been out there with you folks.
Sure do miss AZ.If you ever make a trip back here, we'll have to go out shooting together.
Yeah I was thinking the same thing on the node. That will be my next round of test for sure.
@rhyno said:
Setting the bullet back further in the case can result in over pressure.
I was aware of that. But I didn't think I was going to crack a case like that. Oh well, live and learn.
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Hmmm. I'm not seeing anything real spectacular there. Even if you have a node centered around 43.2, which it looks like you do... those groups are nothing to write home about. That tells me pretty much what I feared. If there isn't any shooter error in those groups pictured, you've likely got a turd of a barrel. It is unlikely that anything you do will provide much better than 1moa. If varget, lapua brass, and 175SMK won't do better than what's shown there... I'd save yourself a HUGE amount of grief, and just send that thing to @tscustoms for a new barrel.
If you are happy with 3/4-1.25MOA, then by all means, buy components and shoot shoot shoot. However, I can virtually guarantee you that you'd shrink those groups by half just by having a new barrel. Then with a little bit of work and some help on how to drive the rifle (which I'll happily provide) you could be shooting a dime on command every round fired.
I can not over-emphasize how many times I've had students show up with substandard hardware, whom are 1/4moa shooters after class is over, and they don't even know it until they shoot my rifle.
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Here are a couple of things that I have experienced doing load workups.
When changing between powders, some barrels need to be seasoned by the new powder before groupings settle in. (You could shoot a proven load and wonder WTF at the results.)
With some powders and some barrels it takes more shots than others to accomplish this.Another thing is that some barrels choose their preferred powder as well as projectile.
I am theorizing here, but I think that it could be the way the carbon fouls the barrel (in the case of the barrel), think how a cold clean bore on quite a few barrels require more than a couple of shots to bring back zero.
That would account for the settling in as well.Premium barrels ( Bartlein, Benchmark, Kreiger etc.) show a lot less effects of these shifts than factory barrels.
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Definitely something to be said of that. Especially the last sentence. The amount of rounds fired for things to settle in should be no more than it would normally take for zero to return from a cleaned barrel.
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Yeah I most likely do have a 1 MOA gun and chassing 1/2 MOA with it right now won't be good. I'm not ready to re-barrel yet as I have so many other thing on my list of wants/needs first. I think I'll stick to shooting 1 MOA for now and make sure I can do that every time. Hell I still haven't even replaced my factory trigger. But that is happen shortly.
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Norcal, when you shot those groups with the varget was that right after shooting the 4064?
The first 2 groups look like the scattering that can occur with a powder change and the subsequent groups look like they are coming together.
The 43.2 group looks like it could be you, trigger or driving and the 43.6 is starting to open up again.
When I was able to get varget one of my .308s just did not like it, but loved rl-15.
With the varget, the best group I ever got was about .75 with most in the 1 moa zone. With the rl-15 as the only change, groups of less than .75 were the norm with .5 and better groups thrown in on a regular basis.
That being said, I wouldn't resign myself to accepting the rifle of being incapable of less than moa. Getting that new trigger will definitely make a difference.
Good luck in this endeavor.
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Well I finally got a chance to redo testing of 4064 with the Amax. I didn't come away with much less than 3/4 MOA groups, but I was able to find a load that shoots right there at mag length.
I'm going to stop chassing magical 1/2 MOA groups for a while and just concentrate on hitting steel at some distance. That really what I like to do and what I should stick too.
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You are probably at the limit of what that barrel will do unless you are willing to load longer than mag length. That is what really made the difference in my r700. I ended up loading them at 2.950 or something like that...bullet just stuck in the case by about 0.250! Yet that rifle would shoot under 1/2" most of the time with those long loaded rounds. I did find a way to feed them from a mag although not 100% reliable. If you are interested let me know and I will expound.
I am also convinced from the few hundred hornady that I have shot that SMK's will jump better than hornady. Might just be coincidence, but likely not. Even if you load the bullets out as far as possible you will probably still be jumping the bullet farther than is ideal...so a bullet that can handle the jump is necessary.
I would also try to let someone else shoot it. I am not trying to insult your abilities...but if I would have had a competent precision shooter to help me when I first started out it would have saved a lot of frustrations. It will also let you know whether it is you or the rifle that is holding you back. You can develop and learn...but the rifle will never get better without modifications.
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I know it will shoot better with longer seated bullets. I went down that road and saw the results. But I decided I'd rather keep my NPA, and learn not to come off the rifle after every shot. So the mag length and my muzzle brake have helped a lot with that.
Like I said, I got off the path of having fun and shooting stuff at long distances because I started chasing accuracy that isn't likely in my rifle.
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@norcal_in_az said:
I know it will shoot better with longer seated bullets. I went down that road and saw the results. But I decided I'd rather keep my NPA, and learn not to come off the rifle after every shot. So the mag length and my muzzle brake have helped a lot with that.
Like I said, I got off the path of having fun and shooting stuff at long distances because I started chasing accuracy that isn't likely in my rifle.
Good stuff in that thought process! You can absolutely still work on some core fundamentals of driving the rifle without a rifle that's shooting dots. You're round placement feedback just won't be as valuable.
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@tscustoms said:
@norcal_in_az said:
I know it will shoot better with longer seated bullets. I went down that road and saw the results. But I decided I'd rather keep my NPA, and learn not to come off the rifle after every shot. So the mag length and my muzzle brake have helped a lot with that.
Like I said, I got off the path of having fun and shooting stuff at long distances because I started chasing accuracy that isn't likely in my rifle.
Good stuff in that thought process! You can absolutely still work on some core fundamentals of driving the rifle without a rifle that's shooting dots. You're round placement feedback just won't be as valuable.
Yes indeed. You can still learn from shooting. The problem is that the positive reinforcement of the bullet hole being in the correct place will not happen. This can be rough on your confidence, constantly questioning "was that me?"
Yet that is what we have classes for. To teach you when it's you and when it's not. ;)
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Had the range all to myself today. This isn't my home range, but I wish it was. Free county range. This firing line goes to 550 and is set up for NRA silhouette. They also have a 1000 yard firing line. But since I was traveling for work and didn't want to haul my gongs with me, so I shot here.
I did zero my new loads in and shot them out to 550 yards on steel. Here's my zero'd in target. Shot 1, came up 2 MOA, shot 2,3 then adjusted 1 MOA left. Shot 4,5 came back right 1/2 MOA and said good enough. (the center hole was just my POA)
So not having a chronograph, I took my best guess at MV. Dialed up to 550 yards, and shot a few. High, came down 1.5 MOA and started hitting steel. Picked out a small piece of steel on the frame, and drilled it. Then I adjusted the MV in my ballistic calculator to match the come up I used. Following the drop chart, I dialed down to 330 for the pig, drilled it. Dialed down to 200 for the chicken, and drilled it. So yeah, pretty happy right now.
Oh side note, the muzzle brake and Atlas bi-pod feet make shooting the rifle so much better.
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@norcal_in_az That's some Hot Shizzizle, bruddah:smile:
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Good shooting.
And I'm a little jealous.I have a two hour drive if I to shoot prone.
Otherwise its off a rickety bench and I have to deal with dick range masters and some joker with an AR on one side throwing brass down the back of my shirt and another joker with .375 H&H Magnum (really, he had to use a lead sled) on the other side. I had to walk away from the bench between shots to keep it from knocking out my fillings.
Again, good shooting.
