Bigfoots RRT



  • @orkan Do you guys tend to shoot 22 ammo that is sub or supersonic?



  • Most ammo worth shooting is subsonic...although it doesn’t all say that on the box.

    I have had very acceptable results with center x. Wolf is decent, eley is ok, but not worth the money in my opinion.

    TPK uses something that is cheap, but still pretty good. Geco or something.



  • I've been shooting gemtechs because of how quite they are and they are pretty consistent. I would like to see how they stack up compared to center-x or eley's on a sound level and out at 50-100 yards.



  • @dddoo7 csm_Randfeuer_Rifle_Verpackung_f1bbca9166.png

    I use this ammo. not as good as center X,but does pretty good for the price.
    https://www.gunbroker.com/item/730631862



  • Geko and Norma are manufactured by RWS.
    RWS also makes the Federal Gold Medal Ultra Match.



  • I use Lapua, RWS, and Eley mostly.

    Lapua Center-X is a great value.



  • @orkan
    The third row bull's eye had me sucking air. I had to tighten up but my first shot went way south. It's weird how when we handed off for each round our first shots went low and right. I guess that's a sign of inexperience.



  • @bigfoot said:

    @orkan
    The third row bull's eye had me sucking air. I had to tighten up but my first shot went way south. It's weird how when we handed off for each round our first shots went low and right. I guess that's a sign of inexperience.

    Not necessarily. It could be inexperience...but it could also be the rifle.



  • @dddoo7
    That is one hard to shoot little rifle. It is very sensitive to hold and I just about know when a shot is bad when the firing pin connects. I can see the subsonic bullets path to the target through the scope and know the results before it happens also. This may sound weird but the path of the projectile seems to exit and go to the left and spiral back to the right for centered hits. If i don't see this path the shot will be bad. Hard to see the high velocity rounds but every now and then I see one if the sun is right. From what little I have shot the old 513 I don't see this spiral path, sometimes I don't see the projectile at all before impact. If I do see it there is just a slight arc and a pulled shot will be similar to the Savages flight patterns. Am I crazy?



  • I decided to check my 300 Blackout sub sonic zero Friday. The last time I shot a target with it the temperature was in the ninety's. Mid fiftie's Friday morning at the ranch. It shot a little low so I don't know if it was because of the lower temperature or just me. I use Lil' Gun in these sub loads and it is supposedly temperature sensitive on the high end not so sure about reduced. I missed a big nasty pig that was around two hundred yards but my zero is a hundred and my scope has no hold over marks so it's a guess. If I can see an impact I can usually lob one in at that range but there was too much grass to show any dust. Wife had the camcorder going but I couldn't see any hits just pigs hauling ass through the grass. Huh, that rhymed. Target was placed at 92 yards. This is not a good AR load unless you like single shots.
    Remington 700 / Timney trigger
    Bushnell 3x9 illuminated (cheap)
    SRT Shadow Suppressor
    208 grain A Max Sub Sonic
    8.0 grains Lil' Gun
    Converted remington .223 Brass
    CCI Small Rifle Magnum Primer
    OAL 2.200"
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  • I pulled my Winchester Wildcat .22 out and sighted it back in for CCI Quiets. The box claims 710 FPS but I get around 650 with my chronograph out of this short rifle. With a suppressor it barely makes a sound but the 40 grain segmented hollow points pop pretty good when they hit something. I set a target at 35 yards and did some adjusting then tried a challenge target. The scope is a 3x9 Hawke Rimfire model that does a good job for it's price range. I almost snuck a couple of 100's in there bad trigger and all. You can see the pellets from my single stroke air rifle embedded in the plywood but these powder charges even at 650 fps will splinter a 3/4 cabinet grade plywood slab. I got a couple of wild ones in there when I was dialing my new zero.
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  • I finally got a ream of the tan paper to print targets with last week. Wouldn't you know my damn printer refused to print anything yesterday. I installed new cartridges and still nothing. Installed updated software the works, nada. My wife came over to the shop and I asked her about it because she has dozens of printers her students use to compete with and she said make sure the cartridges haven't expired. Well they were March 2017 but I have used old ones before. She just about talked me into getting a lazer jet that only prints but guess what? I fired it up this morning and ran a test print and yippee it worked. I guess gravity had to get the ink where it belongs. Don't know don't care. The printer groaned a little bit with the thicker paper. Targets look good on the tan, sure hope It helps my tired eyeballs. Bird count is at one so far today, wish I had a scope camera.



  • I hit the range yesterday after four hours of bookkeeping and ended up with a headache so I needed a diversion. I think I have a pretty good load for My CZ 527 223 I bought used a couple of years ago and earlier last year I loaded some of the same load in new General Dynamics brass. The better group was loaded in Remington once fired neck sized brass and the targets speak for themselves. So, where do I go from here? Neck size the new fired brass or start over with the charge and resize maybe with a little bump? With the tools I have to measure fired brass out of this chamber it appears the shoulder doesn't change much. I might remeasure the GD brass against some Remington, which I have a lot of. Target was set at 100 yards.
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  • I might add I fired four five shot groups and some were worse but this was pretty much the average.



  • Bad brass is bad brass. I'll submit that there's nothing you'll be able to "do" to the general dynamics brass to make it accurate. If you load it again, and it still performs that way... toss it in the trash can. You might be able to get it "acceptable" if you have loose definitions of precision and accuracy. Though it will never shoot like good brass will. If you're getting those kinds of results with remington... I'd be interested in seeing what that rifle would do with lapua.

    I remember when "lake city" .223 brass as well as "Lake City Long Range" 308 brass was all the rage. I got talked into trying it. Nothing but a mistake. While it may be dimensionally similar to lapua, it's certainly not lapua. Nothing I did would every produce anywhere near what I was looking for. Despite the internet being slammed full of people claiming it was sent from heaven on the wings of angels. I later found out that almost all of those people fired their rifles about 3 times a year.

    Eventually you'll get tired of this and going forward you'll just buy the best brass available for a cartridge by default.



  • I put some new eyes on the 513 today. I pulled the Nikon Monarch off of my .243 and set it on for a test drive. It zeroed real quick after a bore sight and the 1/8 adjustment is nice as opposed to 1/4 that the SS scope had. I actually shot the push pin out of my zero target (paper plate) at fifty yards. I said that's good enough and shot a challenge target. The tan paper is nice, thanks Greg for the link by the way. I shot another challenge with my throw down 17 HMR and didn't do too hot.
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  • @orkan
    When I loaded this stuff the necks were so rough or corroded I had to start all over. I couldn't seat a bullet without crushing the brass. I dumped the powder and brushed the necks and resized again. The rounds seemed to be concentric however I do use a Hornady tool that has lots of play, I know there is better ones out there. I actually had better groups with Tac at 24.5 grains with full length sized Remington brass I just happened to have these neck sized only loads on hand. Book lists 24.5 grains at max but the primers don't show anything being close to pressured up. You kind of are busting my bubble in reference to the Lake City brass. I have a pretty good portion of .308 that was supposedly only fired in bolt or semi auto rifles processed and ready to load. I have a Mauser 308 I put together years back that shows some potential and I want to start shooting it something besides pigs and deer. Bad thing about it the Sendero barrel I had threaded for it is a 12 twist. I haven't had much luck over 155 grains. Shoots 150's ok.



  • Brass can measure out perfectly, and still not shoot well. The core material used to manufacture it has quite a lot of bearing on the final result. That core material can turn into something entirely different in the end, as a function of the processes used to draw it and shape it.

    Some companies have this process all figured out. Others are just muddling around in the weeds making money off quantity government contracts.



  • @orkan
    And then it is kind of like a beer can, use it once and recycle it. I see where you are coming from. I think General Dynamics is a Canadian ordinance maker. Someone once filmed a round being fired in a chamber made of clear acrylic resin to illustrate how the brass flowed in the chamber. I wish I could remember where I saw that. Super slow motion too.



  • Back in 2005 I believe I had two Mauser actions barrelled with Remington 260 Midway Barrels. One was a bull barrel for a friend of mine as a birthday present and the other was a lighter weight contour for a basic hunting rig. I did a little work on them mostly stock fitting and and some polishing before bluing. I might have drilled and tapped the receivers for scope mounts I don't remember. Anyway, I loaded all the ammo for my friends rifle up until two years ago when he was killed in a tractor accident. I grabbed a load using BLC-2 out of a manual with 120 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips and never changed a thing and he came back every other year for two to three twenty round boxes and returned the brass. One year I loaded him one hundred and didn't see him for a while. I don't know how many animals he killed with it but he never complained so I figured all was good. I have the lighter barrelled rifle and after thirteen years I decided it's time to shoot it again. I found a target with a three shot group I suppose I shot using 35.0 grains of Varget and 120 grain Nosler BT's. It looked promising so I loaded a fifteen rounds starting at 36 grains of Varget working up to 37 grains. Book says 40 is max. I bought a box of Hornady 130 Gr. ELD Match yesterday for comparison and took everything to the range for a try. First shot with the factory load went four inches high and about an inch and a half left. When I got home yesterday I found the stock has warped putting some pressure on the right side of the barrel however slightly. The barrel is free floated except where it's hitting now and I will fix that. Not trying to make excuses but I had about the crappiest set up with bags and I couldn't get the bipod on it so I'm hoping this isn't a real representation of what I can do with some load work and better optics. Wind was steady sixteen gusting to about twenty and variable depending on the showers spitting rain everywhere yesterday. I got tired of messing with the scope and shot three of the factory for a group and moved on to my handloads. The handloads are messy, real messy so It's time to get started and I have some brass to work with. The 130 grain ELD delivered the best groups so that might be a good starting point for projectiles and I don't have a single one.
    98 Mauser / Midway .260 Remington Barrel
    Simmons Aetec 2.5x10 In Redfield Base And Rings
    Military Stock Recontoured And Barrel Floated
    Bold Adjustable Trigger 4#
    Bolt Handle And Machine Work Performed By Refugio Industries Refugio Texas
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  • Jumped on my .260 today for a little maintenance. Ran some Hoppes copper solvent through the barrel since I don't believe I have cleaned it ever. Maybe when it was back from the machine shop thirteen years ago. I kept seeing copper so I used an ammonia free treatment that seemed to get it out, at least I can't see any streaks. I pulled the action from the stock and sanded the barrel channel and while it was out reset the trigger to 2.5#. Got the bipod attached securely but it's crooked so I've got to jack one leg up a bit. Don't know what's up with that. I did a tight patch barrel twist procedure and I measure nine inches for a turn, wish it was a little faster but I'm stuck with it. Got four projectile choices, 130 Berger's AR Hybrid OTM Tacticals, Hornady 140 grain A Max and 120 A Max and the 120 Ballistic tips. I do have some 95 grain V Max for later. Fuel is going to be H4831SC this time, stay tuned.



  • After doing some 22 shooting this week I decided to break out my CZ 455 17 HMR that has been hiding in the safe for several years and put a scope on it for the second time in its life. I have shot this rifle very little and never really sat down and tried to shoot a group or even get a good zero. I believe I bought it eight years ago and might have shot it a total of twenty times then cleaned it and put it away. First off the trigger drastically needs some help. I don't think it is adjustable so that is a must. Second, the bolt is hard as heck to manipulate but that could just be from never being used and third the threads on the barrel are 1/2x20 so to use a suppressor an adapter is necessary and it didn't come with a thread protector so I bought a top port brake for it and my Englishman machinist friend made a shroud to cover the ugly adapter and time the brake. The only reason I got this threaded rifle was I had a rimfire suppressor waiting on paperwork that I thought was rated for 17 HMR, but it wasn't so I was stuck with it. Anyway, I set up targets at 100 yards and got zeroed pretty quick after bore sighting and shot some five shot groups first with Hornady 17 grain exclusively. The second target I tried three varieties of Winchester from 15.5 up to 20 grains. The last try lower right hand was back to the Hornady loads. By the time I was on the second target it seemed like the trigger lost some of the gritty feel but still is heavy, I suspect it is close to five pounds. I tried a challenge target but this Nikon scope's cross hairs are too heavy, they all but obstructed the entire circle and I only placed three hits in the circles most going left and low. Overall I am not too ashamed of the rifles performance and I take a lot of the blame for the wild shots. And as for this Nikon Monarch scope I am not sure what to use it for, it's definitely not for small targets at longer ranges. The ranging circles work good if you use their Spot On program and I actually got some hits on a 12" plate at 300 yards yesterday with a moderate crosswind. It started raining so I had to give up. One last thing, I had lots of split cases after firing in the Winchester ammunition. I looked at the Hornady and found a couple that had split as well. I thought they had this problem fixed with the brass and this is pretty darn new ammo stored in a controlled environment. Not on the dash of a truck or Polaris. And it does it in my other 17 rifle so who knows what's up with that.
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  • I went to the range yesterday to sight in my Anschutz with the Schmidt and Bender scope I bought. I went ahead and put a rail on the rifle and had some inexpensive 30mm rings that were the right height so I mounted it up last week. I took my CZ 452 22 mag also and my friend took his model 52 Winchester and a 17 HMR. He got lucky, I had a box of 17 in my stuff and he forgot all of his at his house. Maybe he planned it that way. We had a little wind but I have shot in way stronger but overall my performance was not good. The scope is great, nice eye relief, controls are crisp, just what I expect from quality equipment. Its FFP but I set it at 12x and left it there. Super easy to see with both eyes open not like the lower end stuff I'm used to. I went straight to Center X for ammo then later switched to CCI Sub Sonic 40 grain hollow points. After fifteen rounds through it of the CCI's I shot what I call the best group of the day. I had one crawl out of the hole but that's pretty much my trademark :( I did a change up in holds and grip and everything went horizontal in one series of targets and I'm still trying to get used to the thumb hole stock. Might try using a front bad instead of a Harris bipod next time. I switched over to the 22 Mag and shot my first group lower right hand corner of one target with some new ammo I haven't tried in it. CCI A22 Magnum, made for automatic I'm guessing a Savage. I was zeroed for 100 yards so it shot a hair high and right but made a nice cloverleaf shaped hole with five shots at 50 yards. Then Einstein started dikking with the scope and finally left it alone and tried some 30 grain V Max loads that I had been shooting at 100. Got a few good groups and my buddy took a stab at it but he's built like an orangutan with long arms and didn't like my set up and griped the whole time. I know it's only 50 yards but when I first started shooting this CZ I could barely keep it inside an inch and a half with Winchester and some other brands even at 50. I installed a Timney trigger when I got it and adjusted it to two pounds before I shot this time. Along with the ammo change it made a heck of a difference. That 52 of my friends is pretty cool. It's a civilian target model I believe. If I can get the picture to be straight I will attach it.
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    Different grip
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    CCI Sub's
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    22 Mag
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  • @bigfoot
    His Winchester:
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  • Made it to the range today to try some SOCOM loads and try to zero my 22 after a scope change. The 22 was a breeze, hit paper the first shot at 50 yards and then it was spin the dials. This scope has 1/8 moa clicks and for what I got in it I can't complain at all. Need to work on the zero just a little more. That tiny amount showed up on the challenge target I shot along with my poor handling of the rifle in general. I started out with a clean barrel and after group four, the happy one, I shot a challenge target. Still need some more practice. Think I will print a load of dot targets and train on them before I run out of Center X. The scope on the 458 was still pretty close after setting it back on so I shot four groups with four different loads at fifty yards. That scope isn't for target work but it will suffice and I can't explain the two shots that busted the two lower charged groups. Probably a position problem. The half grain increase really scattered them out I'm not sure I didn't cause that. I have several more loads to try with the Barnes projectiles and did recover one out of the dirt. I will get a pic of it tomorrow. The 4227 is dirty so I might stay away from it and load some 300 grain hollow points that are a little cheaper to play with. The last time I shot this rifle the action screws backed out. They didn't today but the brake came loose.
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  • I finally got back to my Mauser .260 Remington I was messing with. Man, that was nine months ago a lot has happened since then. I did a run of hand loads with Berger 130's and some 120 Ballistic Tips starting with a .030 jump with the berger's and a .020 with the Ballistic Tips. I still had the Simmons scope for optics and after wasting all my ammunition messing with it I gave it a nice burial in the box it came in. So, now for part II. I pulled the Zeiss 3x9 off of my .257 Roberts that I know is good and for around a hundred yards I have confidence it will do what I need. My goal is consistent one inch or sub inch at a hundred for hunting. This is a utility rifle and needs way more money put into it to do anything but that. Might put out for a stock and a little more magnification but that's it. I loaded up some more rounds of the same projectiles and powder and shortened the jump to .010. I went back and got sighted in pretty close and started my ladder test I guess you call it and had another goof up. Had a primer failure, not from pressure it blew a pin hole of to the side of the firing pin strike and put a nice hickey on the bolt face. WLR primer that came out of a partial sleeve I had with the rest of them in a box. That's a real pisser. About five rounds later I had another one. This time it blew right at the ejector cut in the bolt so it didn't get the face. I had one more that didn't blow but leaked around the cup and that was it. I didn't take anymore chances and all the rounds that had dingy looking primers were quarantined. Basically I have started over using what little information I have gathered and came up with some more loads to try and yesterday I went come hell or high water. I went back to the lower charge weights that looked promising and stayed with the .010 jump and finally got through some rounds without anything happening. I got into some new primers and brass and some with once fired brass and got some useful stuff to work with. Maybe next time it won't be blowing twenty miles an hour and trying to mist rain. I believe the wind was a big factor for sure. I might leave the 120's alone and concentrate on 130 and up. The spire points shot better than I figured and three five shot groups doesn't mean squat. At least I have a starting place.
    The first group was 39.7. Clean barrel so I don't think it means much.
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    Ballistic Tips
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    Number 11 Ballistic Tip load went vertical like crazy then I shot three loads of the spire points. By then the wind was shaking the target racks and loose objects were blowing off the bench. The two groups show a little promise subtracting the wild shots. I fired one 95 (#12) grain load and the impact was too far off to mess with. Maybe another day.
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  • @bigfoot
    I have to make a correction. The three Hornady 129 grain Interlock loads were charged with I4350 not H4350. The rest are correct, sorry. H sure is more popular and the two have their own load data.



  • The pinholes that appeared in Winchester primers that I was using seems to be a manufacturing defect. I wrote down the lot numbers and googled then came across some chatter on a website Called The Handloaders Bench with a list of numbers in a recall for the same problem I had. I have used almost 300 out of one box and lucky me that box is on the list. I have another thousand with a different number that I couldn't find on the list so I guess I will use them and destroy the rest. Comparing the two different lots the supposedly good ones are a different color like a shiny brass. The others are dingy, must have made them out of substandard metal. The numbers were released in 2018 but I have no idea the manufacturing date of either box of primers. One could have been bought around six or seven years ago but the good one I have was bought last year for sure.



  • I had problems with the Winchester LRP a few years ago.
    Pierced the edges and fire cut the bolt face on my .308. Sent pictures and lot #s to Winchester and never heard back from them.....
    No longer a customer and started buying Lapua .308 small primer brass.
    The good ones were, as you said, like shiny brass and the pin holers were more coppery colored.
    Towards bottom of page...
    https://forums.gunhive.com/topic/657/understanding-pressure/10



  • @mamalukino
    I didn't know there was any trouble with Winchester but I do now. They were about all that was available locally and I just got into this box a while back so I have a hundred or so 7x57 Mauser primed cases I need to punch back out and see what else I put them in. I have shot a few also, so it's not too bad. Sure jacked up the bolt face. I contacted Winchester regarding some 22 magnum they sell that were splitting and never heard back. I sent pictures and receipts from Academy and nada. I have eight boxes sitting on a shelf I guess I will deep six with the primers. I hope pistol primers are ok, that's all I have is Winchester.



  • I will not buy anything from them.
    They were apparently aware of the problem and ignored their customers that had problems using their crap.



  • @mamalukino
    I have a box of 1000 Federal Gold Medal Match I just bought and like a dummy passed on some at that estate sale I went to. I paid $65.00 for these and they had a mountain of them for $25.00/1000. Picked up one brick of small rifle GMM there for $20.00. With the humidity here I don't care to store a load of them even in ammo cans with desiccant packs. Some people keep them forever in coffee cans, don't know if I'm that lucky.



  • I know humidity. I am 150 yards off the ocean and 65 yards to the Iao river. I keep my primers in 50 cal ammo cans with desiccant without any problems.
    Back in 1992 Hurricane Inicki devastated Kauai, many homes destroyed.
    A good friend of mine lived upon a hill and his home was totally destroyed, scattering all kinds of debris including primers. The street was literally covered with soaking wet primers for days. Once it dried up and the clearing began, equipment was brought in to clean up the destroyed homes. Cats of all sizes, were put into use and when they reached David's street they started running over and popping primers! The street was subsequently closed down and a hazmat team was called in to get rid of the primers. David and some of our gang cleaned up and saved as much as they could before being chased off. After all that David saved the primers and dried them out and used them even in high power matches. As far as I know not a dud in the bunch! Anyway 90%+ of those were Winchester primers and David swore by them due to that hurricane experience.
    I have never had a Winchester LR, LP or SRP fail to ignite, but on a few I wish they hadn't.
    I have primers over 20+ years and still expect them to go pop when used. Recently I shot some old Remington 91/2 Magnums that have been around for longer than I can remember.



  • @mamalukino @bigfoot

    Primers are actually very resilient to moisture. The pellet in primers made by most reputable manufacturers has a protective "varnish" laid over top of it to seal it, specifically to combat moisture. They can be exposed to air even in humid environments and last a very long time. Direct sunlight can be a no-no however.



  • @orkan
    Heck, sounds like I'm good then except for the metallurgy issue Winchester had. Come to think of it the only time I had any misfires was one time with a Swedish Mauser due to the cocking piece coming in contact with the screw on a Buehler safety.



  • Back on the .260 again. I shot some 95 grain VMax loads for a change using three different powders. I don't think the guy that developed this caliber had his mind on lighter bullets but like they say if you got em', smoke em'. None of these really were what I would call horrible maybe this cheap barrel is made for lighter stuff. I have a couple of 130 and 120 grain loads I am going to pursue and hope I hit something with Varget that I can live with. I have an excess of that stuff. I shot some Blackout also. I have a Wilson Combat barreled Spikes upper I switch out on a Colt lower with a Burris MTac 1-4 scope with a donut reticle for optics on it. Pretty much stock with a CMC trigger and I shot suppressed through a SRT Shadow can at 100 yards. I loaded 4227, 110, 296 and Lil Gun. Lil Gun took the trophy and the W 296 right behind it. With that optic the groups were inside 2" at 100 shot off of a bipod at a moderate rate of fire. Not quite up to Rambo speed just steady. The brass all landed in the same spot and no failures and no pressure signs on any of the primers. There are so many loads out there for Blackout I just go to the middle of the book charges and start there. I shoot mostly subs so I don't really give a ratsass about the rest of it. Any way, pictures.
    The BLC2 group one got away from me, way away and I did it twice. I had a Harris bipod that kept coming loose but that's been fixed. I mounted a short rail section on the bottom of the stock to attach a different style bipod.
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    Blackout ( I shot V Max and Z Max both were the same )
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