• I finally was able to make it to the range. Had the 6br 1-8 twist along with the DT 6.5 Creedmoor and of course the 40X.
    This was some load development with 6.5 using Lapua brass. Started at 41.1 , 41.3 , 41.6, 41.9. 41.3 looks pretty good will have to load some more and see how it does down range.
    6 br at 100 yards. The 107smk seem to be doing better at the 100 yard mark versus the 105 Barts. The vertical group was shot with a very hot barrel and very poor focus.
    The 105 Barts seem to do better at 400 yards then the 107smk. I rattled 8 then came up a click to try and hit the X. Second shot was close.
    I also shot 200 rounds of 22 with the 40X at 100 yards did not take pic.
    I need to get to the range more often way too long since my last trip.

  • Today may have been my break through day with the 22 creedmoor with virgin brass. Greg I would like to hear your thoughts if you get a chance.
    39.8 and 40.2. This is as good as I have done with loads. Greg where do you think I should test more at.
    This is my 14 twist 6br.
    The first shot was high on the right and then I looked at scope. Had a couple clicks on, put back to zero along with wind adjustment. Then proceeded to shot a better result. Should have quit at 5 on my last group bottom right but I had 2 pills left. Last shot was the low one. Bottom row of dots are all 3 shots except the last one.
    300 wsm rezero.
    Acouple more DT 6.5 creedmoor. Loadedup a few more rounds at 41.3gr of H4350 in Lapua brass. Adjusted scope for second 3. Switching between 22 creed and 6.5 creed at the range. I am getting pretty quick at the barrel swap. Roughly a 1 mil difference between the 2.

  • Man...that 6.5 CM barrel shoots!

  • I just can't see how the 22cm goes from tiny clusters to 1 moa with a six tenths of a grain of powder difference. ... I've never seen that. Not sure what to make of it.

  • @orkan I do not think it is me but one can never be sure. I have not been able to get any consistency. I will load more around the 39.8 to 40.2 starting at 39.7 and see what happens. This has been my challenge. Maybe I should send to you and let you do some load development.

  • @dddoo7 I am digging the 6.5...

  • @tpk936 You can if you like. I'd prefer the complete rifle... that way if there's something up with it equipment wise, I can diagnose that as well. We are class-3, so you can send the suppressor as well, as it's for service... not transfer. It's not awesome trying to figure out something like this without the entire system.

    Same goes, I'd want your brass and bullets as well. Powder and primers too if you feel like paying hazmat. Otherwise we can just see what we see.

  • @orkan I quit using a suppressor a while ago to eliminate that issue. Plus the can I was using took a baffle strike and is being re cored. I will try a couple more loads around the 39.8 and if no consistency I will send out the rifle with once fired brass ready to be loaded with bullets. I would prefer not to pay hazmat but if necessary will do. This is not the first time I have struggled with a load and maybe it will turn out to be a very good learning experience. Last time I was so frustrated I replaced the barrel and action and it now shoots little holes, the Fuzion 6br. I appreciate your help.

  • Range trip 10/22. The conditions where a swirling breeze making things a little more difficult. I tried to have patience and time the wind.
    Here is some more 22 creed and I continue to struggle. Below that is my new hunting rifle I had a 6.5 creed built to hunt with. Nice lite rifle. Just started some load work.
    One of my favorite guns, my 6br 14 twist makes me feel good at 100 yards. 3 shots at each dot. I only had 15 round left. Now I can reload the 100 pieces of empty brass.
    Put a different scope on my 300 wsm and zeroed then took 4. I should have stopped at 3. Next to it is some 22lr with my 40X using Geco ammo. 25 shots. 100 yards
    40X at 100 yards using Geco ammo. 25 shots at each. The breeze was playing with me. I look at this then I thought about the post on another site of 8 of 10 hits on a golf ball at 200 yards I need to go watch that BS.

    I have 454 rounds through that 22 creed and I still cannot get this thing to shoot. I am going to need some help here Greg. I have tried but must be something I am doing wrong.

  • The last four groups on the 22 Creedmoor doesn't look to bad. Maybe some seating adjustments and go from there.

  • @tpk936 said:

    I am going to need some help here Greg.

    Wrap it all up and send it here. Preferably before 4ft of snow is in my yard. ;)

  • @orkan I annealed and sized once fired brass last night. I need to tumble hopefully tonight. Then I will pack it up and send your way. Rifle, Brass, Bullets. 4ft of snow could happen soon in your area. Thank You.

  • Brass is tumbled and trimmed. I will get this all packaged up tonight and will UPS to you. I would say you will have it by Tuesday or Wed the latest. I will send 2 day. Thank You for the help and I am looking forward to the information.

  • We'll be on the lookout.

  • Took your rifle out of the box, screwed on a thunderbeast suppressor.


    Primed 5 of your cases. Noticed dents on several. This is indicative of too much lube on the shoulders. They all had kind of an odd shoulder shape with a secondary step toward the body/shoulder junction and a harsh neck turn transition at the shoulder/neck junction. During bullet seating there was noticeably different seating pressure between rounds, which was confirmed and evidenced by a seating depth variation ES of around 12 thousandths among the 5 rounds I loaded with 41gr of varget.


    Snowy, 28 degrees, and blowing about 20mph today so I elected to shoot off the bench inside. Here are the first five shots.


    Malformed brass and the inconsistent seating pressure I felt... I couldn't expect much better than this. Yet still, with all those known inconsistencies and everything I saw coming into this... shooting from inside on a cold day off a bench... that's one small cluster.

  • r7dA8q8h.jpg

    5 shots - 41.5gr H4350. Three through the same hole and then two came out, one low, one right. I'll need to get outside and lay down... as this mirage is killin me. In my opinion this thing is a laser.

    I'll get bundled up and lay down here at some point.

  • NKt3tXch.jpg

    Went out and laid down for 2 groups. 5 shots each... 100yds. 41gr H4350 @ 2.585 OAL.

    Same story for each group. Three in one hole, two out. I can easily attribute this to the seating pressure variations I'm feeling when seating bullets. This brass is in fairly rough shape with the dents and such.

    So, onto the solution portion of this testing. I think you'd benefit from re-evaluating how you're turning/sizing. I don't know what has been done to this brass or how many times... but it's clear to me the barrel shoots. I'm quite positive if I sized these fired pieces and loaded them again I'd end up with sub-1/4moa once I got the load tuned.

    It's possible you could have a hosed up batch of H4350. I'd need all the rest of your components as well as your dies to really hammer this out.

  • As per our call @tpk936 here's what you need:

  • @orkan Thanks for the help and conversation. Will get items ordered then clean reset dies and try again.

  • Happy to help. :)

  • Today at the range was swirling winds gusting to 12mph. I had a 308 converted to 6.5 afyer burning up the barrel. I can see why the 6.5 is becoming a favorite. I did some load work using 140 & 142 SMK. IMR4350 powder, Hornady brass and fed primers.
    The 142 with 40.5 gr of powder did very nice. The 140 need some more work.
    I have a bunch of 168 SMK lying around so started playing with them in my 300wsm. 62.3gr of IMR4350 looks pretty good 5 shots. I also have some 185 bergers that did not work in my 308 but with 60.5 grains ofIMR4350 thaty shoot pretty good in the 300wsm. 4 shots.
    40X at 50 yards cheap geco ammo.

  • I made it to the range today. The temp was 38 with the wind blowing across at 6 to 10 mph. The mirage was awful and my hands where not working well in the cold.
    Some 40X at 50 yards 5 shots each dot. Not very good. Still using cheap Geco ammo. Almost out then I will clean and switch to some wolf MT
    Still working some 6.5 creed with IMR4350 and SMK 140 & 142. The bottomrow is 22 creed 5 shots with old brass I formed and steel pin tumbled same load as alpha brass target.
    The interesting part on this target is 5 shots with 1 fired brass that was steel pin tumbled and the 2 shots with new brass. A big shift in poi.
    This is the 22 creed with new alpha brass, 41gr H4350, Federal 210 primers, 80 gr Berger VLD Target bullets loaded to overall length of 2.585. Greg what primers are you using? This shows me that the brass was my issue. I will start some load work around 39.8 and work my way up.

    My rice tumbler showed up but would not work. I have another on the way and will not be cleaning any brass till it arrives. After my conversation with Greg I can really feel a difference in how a bullet seats that was steel pin tumbled brass.

  • @tpk936 said:

    Greg what primers are you using?


  • @tpk936 I don't remember, have you tested H1000 at all? That would be something else you could try.

  • @orkan I have not tried H1000. Now that I have been playing with the prometheus and seeing how it throws the exact same charge and seeing how the Alpha brass has arrived( by the way copper is sold out of 22 creed brass) I am ready to start all over. I saw what you did and I see the potential. I should have a lot more confidence in the set up which will help. Give me a couple weeks and I will get this thing working. I feel good about where I am in the process. Sometimes confidence in the system alone can make a difference.

  • 2lf8jc.jpg

  • @tpk936 said:

    ( by the way copper is sold out of 22 creed brass)

    I got 100 before they sold out. I had a feeling they might be hard to come by so I grabbed some for a future barrel.

  • It has been a month since I have made it out to the range. I went out today and it was 37 light breeze. I brought out a 6.5 creed and the 22 creed.
    top row is 22 creed with 41.3 H4350 ,cci primer , oal 2.585. New alpha brass. I still need some work here. The 6.5 works when I do my part. A lot of mirage with the cold weather.
    6.5 creed at 200 yards with 142 SMK. My X sticker fell off and so did I.
    6.5 Creed I was shooting today.
    I do not like the cold. Especially my hands. I have the day off tomorrow and I plan on spending some time at the range tomorrow.

  • @tpk936 How do you like that grip on that RED rifle?

  • @mamalukino I really like the grip. I have 3 MPA chassis set ups all with that grip. I like the thumb rest part and how it holds your trigger finger. For me it is very comfortable.

  • I made it to the range today but had a couple issues so time was cut short. My 6br had a couple failed fires using cci450 primers first time this happened. One the bullet did pop out and powder everywhere.
    Lessons from today. I loaded the last 11 new pieces of 22 creed brass. I actually used my 6.5 forester creed die to load wanted to experiment. I then separated by run out. I saw a lot of run out on 7 and had 4 that where pretty good. That is the second group 4 really good one wanderer. I need to anneal, size, tumble then load some and check run out on once fired brass. I will use the whidden 22 creed die and my 6.5 to compare. It just seems bullets are not seating straight.
    The next lesson was the 6.5 likes a few shots to warm up once it does it gets tighter.
    Then my trusty .308. It has been a while since I shot my .308. I was reminded why I like my 308 so much. I need to start checking turrets before I shoot. The first shot was a little high oops..
    I need to get back to my once a week trips to the range hopefully the weather will cooperate.

  • ocMgtY8.jpg
    Hopefully Sat. Weather looks good.

  • I went to the range today but not for long. The temp was 26 with wind blowing NW by NNW at 18 - 35 mph. Needless to say with a real feel temp at 10 it was to cold. The reason I went was because I received my 22 creedmoor die back from Whidden. I will say it is not the same die. After 658 rounds of frustration sending the gun to Greg and all of his assistance I have found satisfaction with the 22 creedmoor.
    Top row all the way to the right. My hands with gloves caused 1 to get away but the other 4 hallelujah. Look at the four groups with old die and look at group with new die. I know it is only 5 shots but now I can work up a load. The 2 rows below where with first loads I did with prometheus for this gun versus chargemaster. Started with a clean barrel. A couple of loose shots but I am very satisfied with today's results with the conditions today. Thank You Greg for all the help with the 22 Creedmoor.

  • Glad you got it sorted!

    Really sucks that a guy can't count on one of the better die companies out there.

    There is a severe lack of high end product you can count on in the die market.

  • @orkan I hear you, but at least he fixed the issue. It was a real and valuable learning experience. Thank You for the help.

  • One of the reasons I buy higher end equipment is so that there is less of a variable regarding equipment when a rifle is not shooting satisfactory. I am glad you figured it out...but really frustrating that it was the fault of a $300+ die set. For that money they should be perfect every time.

  • @tpk936 Happy to help where I could.

    You made it easy. It was a very frustrating thing for you no doubt, but you handled it well. Many customers would have turned abusive, being dead certain it was the barrel's fault. You did not. While I could sense much frustration, you never turned it on us. We spent hours and hours talking on the phone and you were dedicated to learning and advancing. You dug in, enhanced your knowledge exponentially, and spent money on good support equipment while trying to solve the issue at hand. You spent money shipping the rifle back here and back to you. You lost half the life of that barrel in the process. Months of time. Countless range trips. Hundreds of dollars in components.

    For you to take this all in stride and not be bitter, noting the value of what you've learned, is demonstrative of the kind of person you are, and this fact is not lost on me. Speaks extremely high of your character. It has been and will continue to be my honor to help you wherever I can. Truly rare to find people of your caliber in this world and I'm blessed to have you as a customer and as a member here on Gunhive.

  • Awesome to see you got it worked out!

  • On another note, whidden had better stop making mistakes. Three other customers and even our shipping manager right here at primal rights has fell victim to poorly made dies from whidden in the last 6 months. In each instance, it was something subtle that couldn't be immediately seen that simply produced crappy ammo with lots of runout.

    Look what @tpk936 has endured all because of a damn die.

    ... and I truly don't know where to send folks for custom dies. I can't find one company that truly has a good reputation and doesn't do this to their customers.

    If any of you out there own a machine shop. There's a hole in the precision rifle marketplace, and we should talk. If someone could consistently produce quality custom die sets... you'd be printing money.

  • @orkan

    I was going to ask if you had another option. If I know I am rolling the dice with Whidden I might as well roll the dice with another company.

  • Range trip today. It was a little nicer 45 degrees and the wind 6-8 NW. I did some loads with the new 22 Creed die and shot out the last loads I had from old die and old brass.
    i confirmed 6br loads with the prometheus also.
    I am thinking 41.6 in the 22 creed looks pretty good. I was a little sloppy on last 3. The mirage was a battle. The 105 & 107 loads in the 6br look good.
    I need to do a little work with the 6.5 and 142 sierras with imr4350.
    took out the single shot 40X today. Geco ammo 50 yards. 5 shot groups boxes 1- 8 the single shots to finish.
    I am getting excited about the 22 Creed. This thing is a laser. Time to add another 22 Creed set up to shoot 95gr pills talk to you this week Greg.

  • Made it to the range today to play with the 22 creed a 6.5 creed and a 300wsm. There will be no 22 creed pics or 22lr pics. I have all guns out of cases set up and ready to shoot. Only problem forgot all 22 ammo at home. Range is a 35 minute drive. Looks like I need to try to get there tomorrow.
    I was trying to see the difference between IMR4350 and H4350 all are 3 shot groups . For the IMR loads they where all 142 sierra bullet, 40.5gr powder loaded at 10, 15 and 20 thou off lands. For the H4350 I loaded 142 and 140 sierras 15 thou off lands at different charge weights.
    300 wsm at 400. First 2 left next 5 center then one shot for lower X and right X. Not bad. The temp was 45 and the wind was swirling from 8 to 16 mph.

  • I made it to the range even though temp in low 40,s and drizzle just a crappy day. Good news I remembered all of my ammo.
    22lr. I moved the scope back on the rifle and this did improve my set up.
    Some 6br 5 shot groups.
    Played with some 6.5 creed loads and some 22 creed loads. The bottom right is 6 shots at 41.6 oal of 2.585.
    Now I have a question. I wear contacts and I find that the reticle in the TT is so fine that it becomes blurry. My other scopes reticles are thicker. My S&B especially. When I came home I took out my right contact and the reticle was so much crisper in the TT. Does anyone here take out there contact to shoot? I do shoot with both eyes open. When I read small print I have to wear readers with my contacts. Without contacts I can read small print with no problem. I am thinking next range trip to try and shoot with right contact out. Thoughts?

  • I shoot with contacts out...but I don't ever wear contacts or glasses. I guess contacts are just a side effect of getting old and I wouldn't know about that. lol :)

  • @tpk936 said:

    I wear contacts and I find that the reticle in the TT is so fine that it becomes blurry.

    Sounds like you don't have your diopter set correctly.

  • @orkan I know but I have adjusted it and it will be fine, then it gets a little blurred. First shot clear net shot clear then it will be a little blurry. It comes and it goes. So I am pretty sure it is my eyes. Similar when I am reading without readers. I think next range trip I will bring my contact stuff take it out and see what happens. Experiment a little. I am due for an eye exam. Getting old blows..

  • I support your conclusions. What you are describing is eye fatigue. This sets in generally due to lack of oxygen. The way one sits at a bench or the way one lays on the ground can deprive you of oxygen. Remember the class and the portion we spent on breathing.

    It could also be contact lens drifting. I had that issue when I wore them. (before laser surgery) Looking up as one does when behind a rifle caused my contacts to drift downward, pulling them off focal center.

    If it's fatigue, taking frequent breaks by laying your head down next to your rifle and closing your eyes can help. Also if oxygen deprivation is the culprit, then rolling over and laying on your back to open your chest to free breathing can help.

  • @orkan Thank You will try some of those. It could be the contact floating.Funny you say close your eyes some times when I put my head down and close my eyes it clears up. Contacts do hinder oxygen to the eyes.

  • I read somewhere that when eye fatigue sets in to look at the color green for several seconds. It needs to be a brighter green not something dull. I’ve tried this and it actually works very well, can’t say if it’s actually working or if it’s a mind game thing but either way it does help with the eye fatigue and blurred vision. Another thing that helps me is I usually shoot with both eyes open changing it up and closing my left eye sometimes helps as well.

  • said:

    closing my left eye sometimes helps as well.

    You may be a rare human indeed. Covering one's eye, with a patch or ornament is long accepted as a way to build concentration and reduce fatigue. However, closing one's eye is typically against policy. The constriction of the face tends to pinch off blood flow through the face/head and also uses muscle energy to contort one's face as such... both of which will increase fatigue.