Toni's RRT



  • Precision Hunter ammo 162g. Eld-X bullets, 100m shoot prone.

    First 3 shot group, then dialed .3 mils to the right and the shot went low (don't know why but I suspect there is a great velocity variance).
    Returned to zero the windage and dialed .3 mils left and shoot the last round.

    QUwPiIB.jpg



  • Today I received the magnetospeed sporter chronograph and went to try it, I'm not sure if I attached it right but it read the 3 shots. I have set the sensitivity to reg, should I have switched to the highest sensitivity?

    Used hornady precision hunter 162gr ELD-X factory ammo
    1- 880m/s
    2- 881m/s
    3- 881m/s

    Before shooting i have weighed the cartridges:
    1- 29,9g
    2- 29.9g
    3- 30,2g
    It is curious that they all have a similar speed and the third shot is that low (I am convinced that it was not me).

    IdXgGZg.jpg



  • Toni, you need to shoot at least 10rnds for chrono numbers to have any statistical value. Preferably 20. Secondly, I don't recall seeing significantly better groups than around 1moa from your rifle... is this a different one? Thirdly, you can not judge accuracy or precision with the magnetospeed attached. Having it on your barrel affects both precision and accuracy.



  • No, this is the same rifle. When I started practicing precision shoting my groups where moa and bigger, lately I was getting a bit better than moa groups. Magnetospeed has launched my poi around an inch up but every once and again there is a lower hit with this ammo and it is curious that this one had almost the same speed as the others but the cartridge was heavier, could it be due to chronograph or maybe other thing?

    Well, these are the first three, I have not had time for more shooting, have to be all the shots on the same day to get statistical value?



  • @toni said:

    have to be all the shots on the same day to get statistical value?

    Typically, because in hotter or colder temps the velocity will change. Thus with differing bore conditions due to humidity and such.

    Yes, having the magnetospeed attached will invalidate any accuracy or precision testing. Rounds fired with it on are ONLY to get velocity.



  • Thanks, I'll keep it in mind.



  • Definitely magnetospeed doesn't improved my groups, three more shots this time I chosen the cartridge that weighed the most, the least one and one in between.

    Used hornady precision hunter 162gr ELD-X factory ammo
    1- 866m/s
    2- 889m/s
    3- 879m/s

    Wheather conditions were almost the same as the last day. But today the velocity variance was much bigger, so big that I guess this ammo will not be worth to long range shooting.
    8zPCaiu.jpg



  • In my experience...the magneto speed will change poi, but will not significantly hurt groups size.

    Thing is...it is hard to tell what you have with only three shots. I would shoot at least two 5 shot groups over the chrono before looking at the velocity.

    Also...I don't know whether or not it is hot there, but if you take a rifle out of an air conditioned house or car and shoot it right away the first 4-5 shots will be all over the place. If you let the rifle warm up to outside temps for an hour or so then the cold bore will be true to the rest of the shots. I found this out over the last couple of months of shooting. Water condensates in the barrel and will completely mess with your cold bore shot as well as 2-3 shots after than.

    Might be something to look at.



  • @dddoo7 said:

    In my experience...the magneto speed will change poi, but will not significantly hurt groups size.

    If you're dead in the middle of your node, then no, likely not. However I've seen the magnetospeed hurt group size as well.



  • I'll keep it in mind, I think the rifle and ammo were more or less at ambient temperature, but maybe 89%HR could have screwed up the cold bore shot.
    75 fps ES is not good, I know there are not enough shots to draw any conclusion. Before getting the chronograph also had mixed results with this ammunition which fits perfectly with the data I am getting from the chronograph.

    Assuming there is 75 fps ES in this ammunition, is that enough to get out of the accuracy node? or in other words impossible to group good?



  • Yes. Factory ammo tends to not be very good. 75fps is a huge swing.

    Though as I have said before, more shots need to be fired to get usable data. 10 at least in one string. Then you can see the ES, Avg, and SD. The SD is quite an important number. You can have one round throw the ES WAY off.



  • In this case, these speeds confirm the results that I have obtained by firing at 900, 800, 700 m.
    This is 4 more shots, pretty same conditions than yesterday, so I have decided to stop since this ammunition is not good to get first shot hits past 500m, but I still can use them to foul the bore.

    LiFFIGw.jpg

    10 shots:
    AVG 2878 fps
    HI 2917 fps
    LO 2839 fps
    SD 26 fps
    ES 78 fps



  • 500m precision hunter 162gr ELD-X factory ammo, first shot went low left because cold shooter, I do not know why I could not stop the crosshair to wander around. Next two probably lucky shooter ;) the only difference was the bipod was braked against grass and steadier sight picture.

    Bzs2HQk.jpg



  • When is the crosshair wandering? During aiming or after recoil?



  • When I was aiming the crosshair didn't remain still on the first shot, sorry for my poor english I thought that wandering around was the appropriate words to describe it. I am dealing with muzzle jump during recoil, but after that it usually returns to target.



  • @toni said:

    When I was aiming the crosshair didn't remain still on the first shot, sorry for my poor english I thought that wandering around was the appropriate words to describe it. I am dealing with muzzle jump during recoil, but after that it usually returns to target.

    Your English and wording was fine. I just wanted to make sure I was understanding it correctly.

    I've been having similar issues the last few weeks from my weakness, but I have most of my strength back now. Sounds like you need to just make sure your building your position well.



  • Thanks I try my best to translate it, most of the time I end up writing something that looks like what I would mean because not knowing how to translate it correctly.
    Glad you are recovered.



  • If the rifle is set up correctly...you should be able to completely let go of it and it stay on center of target. Goal is to get the bipod and rear bag right so that the rifles natural point of aim is dead center of the target. Then it requires very little muscle to keep it there for the shot....and the only muscle
    Should be a slight squeeze on the rear bag. I am still learning to do this...but this was part of the class Orkan taught back in may.



  • Today I had a little time before nightfall and I could only shot once but calmly and checking NPA, breathing, trigger pull and follow through ...

    yzBFv4g.jpg



  • Great shot! :)



  • Thanks!, but the dot isn't 1/2 inch it's roughly 2.7 inches diameter ;) . I did some work on this ammo lately and now it is a lot more consistent in velocity. Next try will be at 900m.



  • 2.7" at 500 meters is a great shot.



  • Today I have shot at 900m, a single shot because I did not see the impact and I went to see it. INCREDIBLE!!!, that's why I am not going to post it. I prefer it because I do not want anyone to think I cheated, I'll just say that it's been a solid hit.



  • Yesterday I was lucky, although there was no wind. Two more shots today, different atmospheric conditions. Dialed 7.5 mils up and 0.2 mils right, the wind was gusting but not much wind, shot went left then dialed another 0.1 mil right and it seemed to me that the wind had stopped ...
    I measured a wind of 3-4 miles per hour at my location, if so little wind is able to deviate that much the bullet how difficult is it to impact centered?
    Coolest thing has been seeing the two impacts.

    kMWip9F.jpg



  • This is why finite wind estimation is largely instinctive. Tiny variations can cause a massive POI shift.



  • Today there was no wind, and I wanted to try a little over 900m.
    1012 m. I did not have enough clicks available in the scope and I had to use a mil of the reticle, needed 9.3 mils up so I dialed all the available clicks 8.3 mils and forgot to add the one mil of the reticle dough!! miss. The second shot I have not forgotten to add a mil of the reticle so dialed 9.3 up and 0.2 left and it has impacted on the top edge of the box. I have attached the free floated chronograph and it worked pretty well, I only had to adjust it before each shot because the assembly is fragile.

    9O6BAov.jpg



  • 6 shots today, Hornady interbond ammo didn't group but the first shot went to hell not sure why, maybe the change of bullets?

    oQ6FjPM.jpg



  • 4 shots today, Hornady Eld x pulled first shot.

    e1lL72g.jpg



  • This is the result of the pressure ladder until I found primer cratering at 61gr. I made a mess and marked the third shot twice so not sure which is the 3rd and 4th shots.
    With this result which charges would you try for the ocw?
    8vhWB7g.jpg
    IC8Mg8k.jpg



  • that 5th case doesn't look like it's showing pressure, so you should be safe to work anywhere around there.



  • What would you do at this point?

    This load will be for hog hunting most shots under 300m.



  • I'd find where pressure lives. Go up until you see it, so you know where the cap is.

    You know, if folks would just follow my article on load development to the letter, they'd pretty much always find what they need.

    There are no shortcuts.



  • Loaded another round with 62gr and shot it, this time primer flattened a bit and there is a crater. I've noticed a weird boooom! much louder. I'd prefer a mild load than a hotter one. Velocity was 3109 fps.

    13e8cX0.jpg



  • If I understood well the article, now I should do the OCW test starting at 57.5gr, 58, 58.5, 59, 59.5 is it correct?



  • Couldn't hurt!



  • Thanks! I'll post the ocw when I have done it.



  • Toni can you give me the overall length of one of your rounds with a 154 interbond seated? Also your barrel length please.



  • Will do, thanks. Do you mean base to ogive length?

    I shot the ocw but could not finish because it got dark. Curious thing is that I've had several primer craterings with those charges.

    t2nlCG2.jpg



  • No, I mean overall length.

    @toni said:

    Curious thing is that I've had several primer craterings with those charges.

    Some bolts crater primers no matter what.



  • Overall length is 3.318 inch and barrel lenght is 24 inch.



  • IWfGegwh.jpg



  • Excuse my ignorance, I do not understand any of that. Is 61 gr a node?



  • That is simply the output of a simulation that shows you approximately where you are in terms of pressure. The red line indicates pressure, the blue line indicates velocity. The left scale shows pressure, the right scale shows velocity, the bottom scale shows barrel length.

    Obviously you're seeing 100fps more than indicated on the graph. This proves this is an approximate simulation, not hard data... but it provides a view.



  • Thanks orkan I think I understand it now, 61 gr is near max pressure for this powder.

    Finished the ocw from 57.5, 58, 58.5, 59 to 59.5 I believe that I don't shot that bad, maybe I reload that bad, or my rifle doesn't have nodes? maybe seating depth is in the worst place....what do I do now?

    sluSTbW.jpg



  • I'd switch bullets or switch powders. Nothing to work with there at all.



  • I'm waiting for the N560 or N570 powder, meanwhile I will try to learn things with them.

    I got a good group just changing seating depth a bit and sorting the bullets (only for that group), will load a few more and shot again to see if it is repeatable. These bullets have a variation in weight of 0.8 grains, wish they were as consistent as bergers...

    Yp3c9P7.jpg



  • Few more shots today, had one primer that failed to shot and most have failed at first firing having to
    re cocking the bolt to fire them... I do not know why this is, I've only used Sinclair Primer Pocket Uniformer to uniform the primer pockets and the coax press to prime the cases. Oh used cci 250 mag primers.

    0Qys9A6.jpg



  • I refer to this when measuring primer pocket depth. Having to re-strike the primer to fire indicates a problem that needs to be addressed as soon as possible. Is this a recurring problem or a first occurrence?
    https://ballistictools.com/articles/primer-pocket-depth-and-diameter.php



  • Thanks for the link, looks like sinclair primer pocket uniformer exceeds max depth I am getting 0.133
    It has happened to me since I started reloading recently (this is my first primer box), never happened previously.



  • @toni
    I am not 100% sure .001 over the max depth is the problem however it could be part of a compounded error in conjunction with other factors. Whatever is happening needs to be fixed whether it's simply an obstruction in the bolt barrel like excessive grease or foreign matter or something more complicated such as incorrect firing pin protrusion or excessive head space. If you noticed light primer strikes, some pictures of fired cases showing the primer dimples may help. I did see one you posted that showed some flowback but that could be from a slightly over sized firing pin hole, I think Orkan addressed that earlier. I will bow out at this time because this is about as far as my knowledge of fire arms takes me. I am sure someone else will have some input that will help.



  • How to place a primer in a pocket is simple, if you have the right tools. Our CPS, with it's mechanical hard stop, can place a primer to within .001 of your desired depth. So you measure the pocket depth, measure the primer thickness from bottom of cup to top of anvil, then bottom of cup to top of cup. That will tell you how thick the primer is, and how far the anvil sticks up above the cup. Subtract the primer thickness from the pocket depth, and you'll be able to see how far below flush you need for proper contact.

    You must at minimum ensure that all anvil prongs are sitting on the bottom of the primer pocket. You can completely compress the anvil into the primer, but you risk fracturing the pellet. I prefer .002 to .004 of crush on the anvil.


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