Bullets from the Bible thread



  • A place to discuss the heavy shit @dddoo7 is laying down each day. ;)

    https://www.gunhive.com/news/bullets-from-the-bible-04-04-17.html

    Today's is especially awesome. Why haven't I heard this before? Sure, I'm a heathen and what not, and I don't go to church, but it isn't as if you don't pick up what the various bible thumpers are always saying. They never say ANYTHING like this.

    If @dddoo7 were around here, I'd go to church to listen to what HE has to say. My experiences with churches and church people have always taken an ultra-liberal left-leaning approach. Even those that were conservatives did not speak the truth... not as @dddoo7 does. I detected it as bullshit and thus, have spent my life avoiding those people and those places. It's more clear to me now than ever before, that they serve themselves. They serve themselves, they serve greed, and they serve the devil, but they are NOT serving god or their fellow man. It's all dressed up behind ceremony, pageantry, and multi-million dollar churches... but it's all a sham. An act. The REAL information is in the bible and they refuse to talk about things like Daniel talks about in todays bullets from the bible.

    WORK, and you shall have food. Do not work, and you shall NOT. Yet my entire life all any religious person has talked about is how I'm suppose to give charity. They have NEVER filled in the other side of the equal sign, and it always felt like a lie to me.

    Well, as of today, now I know that it IS a lie. I knew it was, because it felt wrong. Yet I've never seen the actual text confirming that feeling until today. Strange how the truth has become so hidden. So obscured by deceit masquerading as truth. I wonder just as Daniel said, what would the world be like if these principles were adhered to?

    Thank you Daniel.



  • It ain't my words. I can't speak with authority except for what is written in the word. The problem is that most religious leaders today have gotten away from the word...and without the word of God it isn't truth. If I ever present something and can't back it up with scripture I beg you to call me on it. My words and opinion don't matter. Only truth matters.

    Thanks for the encouraging words Greg



  • I have truly enjoyed these "Bullets from the Bible" and applaud 3d for contributing these daily.
    I also applaud Gunhive.com for supporting the publication.

    99% of the Lawyers make the rest look bad.

    2


  • I've enjoyed reading some of them.

    Rather I've enjoyed reading all the ones I've read, but I don't read them all, though that will probably change.



  • I actually read today's during lunch, co worker notice me reading intently and asked what I was reading he skimmed it quickly looking really for the verse I believe, and we talked about it all of lunch, and other things.

    He asked me to send it to him so he could read it all.

    After a few minutes he said, "I shoulda read that at lunch. He's right. What a country we would have if we followed more of those principles"

    Just thought I'd share that.



  • @rhyno

    Really cool!



  • I like today's.

    It's something I think Orkan and I have discussed, maybe not the exact same thing but similar.

    You see it a lot in the gun community, at least online, it's the whole lieing to your wife thing, you've seen them "my wife will kill me if I buy xxxx" or "my wife only thinks I have two guns" or whatever.

    It's disrespectful to your wife, and it's not good for your marriage to lie, and you're basically making your wife out to be a (pardon my language) bitch.

    It's the mentality of "I can afford this, but my wife says no" oh so your wife wants you to be unhappy? Or what is it?

    And you know those guys, if their wife saw what they wrote, they'd be in trouble.

    I dunno maybe not what you're going for with today's but it's what came to my head.



  • I've ranted about that here many times. :)

    @dddoo7 definitely has it right, and the bible says so!



  • @rhyno

    You are correct. I do believe that this verse applies to these types of comments and attitudes.



  • @orkan said:

    My experiences with churches and church people have always taken an ultra-liberal left-leaning approach. Even those that were conservatives did not speak the truth... not as @dddoo7 does. I detected it as bullshit and thus, have spent my life avoiding those people and those places. It's more clear to me now than ever before, that they serve themselves. They serve themselves, they serve greed, and they serve the devil, but they are NOT serving god or their fellow man. It's all dressed up behind ceremony, pageantry, and multi-million dollar churches... but it's all a sham. An act. The REAL information is in the bible and they refuse to talk about things like Daniel talks about in todays bullets from the bible.

    Greg, I definitely see what you see as well, and I've seen it across the board. I was raised Catholic, then in college I went non-denominational Protestant, then Agnostic, almost became an Atheist, and then I came back to the Catholic Church. I've seen what you mention in all the different churches I've been to. Something I try to remember is that the Church is a hospital for sinners not a museum of saints. Most people have a basic knowledge of the Christian faith, most people live the faith they know at the very basic level, making many mistakes. I also think that if we as a people would be more interested in growing in faith in Christ and living according to His principles, our world would be much much better.



  • Considering my definition of hospital is a place where you go a let doctors try to kill you, I guess I can relate to your explanation of churches being like hospitals. ... because if you follow what most churches preach, you'll be closer to hell than heaven.



  • That post comes down to a simple mantra for me, help those who are willing to help themselves.



  • @norcal_in_az said:

    That post comes down to a simple mantra for me, help those who are willing to help themselves.

    That would be yesterday.



  • @orkan yes yesterday's post.



  • Why are there so many different types of churches?

    Why are there so many different "truths" being taught?

    How many churches did Christ establish?

    How many "doctrines" did Christ deliver?

    How many different ways are there to salvation?

    -- Stay tuned folks. Each of these questions are clearly addressed in the Bible...and will be answered over the next several days.



  • @orkan said:

    Considering my definition of hospital is a place where you go a let doctors try to kill you, I guess I can relate to your explanation of churches being like hospitals. ... because if you follow what most churches preach, you'll be closer to hell than heaven.

    LOL!



  • @dddoo7 I've been a student of Church & Christian history for a few years. I am looking forward to what you present.



  • @norcal_in_az Help those who are willing to help themselves. I agree. Knowing when to cut people off is my problem.

    If I am at the point that I feel it necessary to put my guns into off site storage, have I reached that point?

    Mucho drama surrounding a 20 year old drug addicted stepson reached a peak tonight.
    My trunk is full as I am driving to work now.
    The Detoxing punk laid his hands on his GF, choke hold after a punch, and his mom, while I was getting ready in the bedroom.
    I returned the favor to him and they jumped in to keep me from finishing him. They drove him to a buddy's house and the GF stayed with him.
    If my wife ever lets him back, I am gone.

    Is that reasonable?

    She says he will be dead before she chooses him over me.
    She Loves me and I'll die protecting her.

    See my predicament?

    Some people are a cancer.

    Thanks for letting me vent.



  • By even having that person in your house, anywhere near your loved ones, you invited it.

    It's just like old vampire movies. They can't come in unless you invite them. ;) Some light humor there, but the realization that you are 100% in control and completely expected to make the correct choices to keep your family safe. After what has transpired, you had better cut that person completely out of your life, as well as anyone that refuses to cut him out also.



  • @hypo

    Praying for you all



  • My wife is completely on my side.
    Even his Father just called and said I did what should have been done years ago.
    I see your point Orkan.
    I feel that my wife finally sees that point.
    We can NEVER trust him.
    Now it is just the two of us.
    Will probably put the Double Wide on the market and move closer to town.
    Air Rifle may be in my future as well.

    About to drive to Tampa
    Made a report with the local Sheriff Department.
    CYA move. They have had their eye on him for a while.
    30 Meth Heads just got busted next County over.
    Supply around here is running thin.
    Zombies are Detoxing involuntarily.
    The little twerp bit me in the bicep as an attempt to avoid the choke.
    Eye gouged too.
    Cheap tricks.
    Even worse.
    My wife was amazed that I didn't seem to even get angry or winded.
    Kept my cool. No tunnel vision either.

    I don't wish dealing with drug addicted idiots on any family.

    Thanks for the support and points to pray about everyone.



  • @hypo I'm sorry for your troubles.

    You have to get your wife to understand, there is no helping him. It may kill her on the inside to see him homeless, and hungry, but you can not support him in anyway. He has to make the choice to either clean up and come home or live the life he's choosen away from you and your wife. Simply tell him, we don't live in that lifestyle and we won't be around anyone who does.

    You wouldn't let keep a dog around that turned rabid on you. Why do you have to keep a child around who's turned violent on you and others.



  • @hypo said:

    Will probably put the Double Wide on the market and move closer to town.

    !?!?!?!?

    Farther away from town usually results in a more stable life. ... just sayin. ;)

    Keep your wits about you and your head up and you'll be just fine. Pay mind to logic and put sentimentality on the shelf until you can get stabilized.



  • The apologies have already started.
    He is messed up and what I had begun to suspect he admitted to his GF.

    I can always get to work. Sort of a cop out to leave though.
    Oh and I completely forgot that advice about not getting into physical altercations.
    I just can't abide a guy hitting and choking a girl in my presence under our roof.
    Oh, and NEVER let a minor on Facebook.
    That is what is coming out in bits and pieces.
    His overreacting and the insults directed at me are projecting onto me what he cannot do to another person that deserves it.

    007 please do a sermon for young people about Obedience to your parents.

    Everything he has gotten into would have all been avoided if he had just obeyed as a younger person.
    Feeling my age. That messed up person fights above their weight class.
    Wife is holding the line.

    The woods are crawling with meth Zombies.
    Be careful.
    Thanks,
    Tom



  • @hypo said:

    007 please do a sermon for young people about Obedience to your parents.

    I preached one a few months ago to young people. I'll sum it up in a daily bullet soon.



  • You'd do well to avoid making any major changes to your life during times like this. There is already a ton of instability that comes with dealing with unstable people. It takes time and effort to remove them from your life. Uprooting everyone and moving can be pretty rough on people in the first place. Doing it at a time like this can be even rougher.

    You say the apologies have already started... My question would be: Why is anyone even speaking to him? Any person that has it in them to hit/fight you and other people they claim to love, is capable of ANYTHING. This isn't a fucking reality TV show. I wish I had learned that earlier in life. I always tried to hold out hope that violent people would stop being violent. They don't. Anyone that lacks control of themselves to that degree will be a poison to anyone they encounter.

    Sure, time can change a person. People can commit themselves to change, and see it through. That takes tremendous time and tremendous effort. It takes strength to stay away from those people while they are in the process. Just decide to do it, and do it.



  • https://www.gunhive.com/news/bullets-from-the-bible-04-08-17.html

    As someone that is frequently persecuted for telling the truth, this is quite relevant.



  • ANYONE who tells the truth long enough is going to eventually be labeled the troublemaker.

    There are always people who are satisfied living a lie...whether it be dealing with guns or God. These people will always vigorously fight against the one who speaks the truth that points out that they are wrong.

    Truth is truth. The messenger does not change truth. Whether or not it is believed does not change truth. A majority of people saying it is not does not change truth. Truth is absolute...and can be know if one is willing to open their mind and ignore all of the false things they have heard all of their life.

    It is easier to believe a lie I have heard 1,000 times than to believe the truth I have only heard once.



  • Quite true, indeed.

    edit: Because there is no point.



  • https://www.gunhive.com/news/bullets-from-the-bible-04-09-17.html

    They ALL say they are following the bible @dddoo7. Which bible? Easy to say you're following the manual when there are countless "versions" of the manual.



  • @orkan

    You are correct in that they ALL say that they are following the Bible. I also believe that most Christians BELIEVE they are following the Bible. Yet the reality is that just because I claim to follow the Bible does not mean that I am. Many will preach entire sermons with only one or two verses read. Why only one or two verses? If your point is worth making then it should have come from the Bible and should have a scripture read to back it up and show that it is true. If it doesn't have a scripture to back it up...then it shouldn't be preached. Most of my sermons have 25-30+ verses in them to verify and back up every point and sub point that I am making. How can I say I am preaching the word if I don't prove it from the word.

    As far as many different Bibles...there are many translations. The Bible was originally written in Hebrew (Old Testament) and Greek (New Testament). It is necessary for it to be translated into English in order for us to understand it. Some translations are better than others. Some translators took liberties in translating the text and used their "translation" to support their beliefs. This is why it is good to use a "word for word" translation instead of "paraphrased". The paraphrased translations try to explain what the original words meant instead of just translating them. I don't want other men's ideas. I am smart enough to read and study the word and know what it means. KJV, NKJV, ASV, NASV and several others are good word for word translations. The "new" being more ideal for the way we speak today. The meaning is the same...it is just modern language instead of 1600's language.

    While "paraphrased" translations sometimes lead to problems...the main problem in the religious world is that people, while claiming to follow the Bible, have gotten so far from truth that they are only teaching their own version of the gospel.

    Again...I challenge you. If anyone here proves me wrong from the Bible on anything I teach I will change what I teach to match the Bible.



  • @dddoo7 said:

    the main problem in the religious world is that people, while claiming to follow the Bible, have gotten so far from truth that they are only teaching their own version of the gospel.

    I agree. Pertains to yesterday's bullets greatly. They don't know, yet they speak as an authority.



  • @orkan said:

    They don't know, yet they speak as an authority.

    Exactly.



  • I am always hesitant to jump into discussions like this one because more often than not they make some people feel rather uncomfortable, others get outright upset, and usually, Catholic perspectives are normally not well received, but since Greg has allowed the conversation to develop, and since those engaged in this conversation care about truth, I'll jump in with my thoughts.

    @orkan said:

    https://www.gunhive.com/news/bullets-from-the-bible-04-09-17.html

    They ALL say they are following the bible @dddoo7. Which bible? Easy to say you're following the manual when there are countless "versions" of the manual.

    A very valid question Greg. Although Daniel answered the question correctly from the perspective of Bible translations (literal vs. dynamic), a greater issue exists. Protestant Bibles have a total of 66 books, Catholics Bibles have 73 books as well as additional sections of Daniel and Esther, then there are other Christian churches whose bibles have as many as 81 books. I don't know if this is what you were thinking of when you asked the question, but this is reality. And the problem only gets worse from there, let's assume for a minute that the canon of the OT was settled by the time of Christ (it wasn't), why do we only have 27 books in the NT? Who said that it should be 27? Why not 25, or 32, or 17? There were after all, between 250-350 writings in the 1st 2-3 centuries all claiming apostolic authority. How can we today, know with certainty that none of those writings are also "inspired" scripture and are just not part of the Bible. By the way, neither Christ nor any of the Apostles said there would be a written manual for the Christian faith.

    So how is it that we know today that the Gospel message of salvation in Christ is true? If we are going to say, "well, because the Bible says so", I think one would rightly ask, "isn't that circular reasoning?"...Bible says salvation is through Christ, Bible comes from Christ/Apostles.

    "Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and MAKE DISCIPLES OF ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age." - Mt. 28:18-20
    (emphasis mine)

    This is the last command that Christ gave the 11 Apostles. Christ sent men to preach and teach "all that he commanded" and to make disciple of all nations. Is ALL that Christ commanded to be taught to ALL the nations contained in the Bible?
    Further, If we are going to look at the Bible as the manual to follow, the Bible did not exist in the form that we have it today until 393 AD at the earliest, so how did people hear the Gospel to believe in it and be saved for almost 300 years? Simple, they heard it from the Church. Christ commissioned preachers, not writers. Just think about it, he gave the commandment to 11, how many wrote? Peter, John, Mathew, and James (but this is debatable), Paul wasn't 1 of the 11. What happened to the other apostles, were they disobedient? Reality is that all apostles went off and started communities (churches), remaining faithful to Christ's command to make disciple of all nations. Listen to Paul:

    "And he gave some as APOSTLES, others as PROPHETS, others as EVANGELISTS, others as PASTORS and TEACHERS, to EQUIP the holy ones for the WORK OF MINISTRY, for BUILDING UP the body of Christ, until WE ALL ATTAIN to the UNITY of FAITH AND KNOWLEDGE of the Son of God, to MATURE manhood, to the extent of the FULL STATURE of Christ, so that we may no longer be infants, TOSSED by waves and SWEPT ALONG by EVERY WIND OF TEACHING arising from human trickery, from their cunning in the interests of deceitful scheming." - Eph. 4:11-14 (emphasis mine)

    Here, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, Paul states very clearly how the people of God will attain unity in faith "to the extent of the full stature of Christ". And it makes sense no, we are fathers too, and our fatherhood stems from that of God, but we are imperfect. So how many of us have written "instructions for life" for our kids so they follow them after we are dead? And even if we did, when we pass do we expect our kids to follow only what we wrote?, but not everything else that was taught in the family? Why would we expect God, our Father, who is perfect, to do something we, imperfect fathers, don't do or wouldn't do? Christ never wrote anything. Christ never commanded anyone to write anything. Christ established a church, and based on His authority, he commissioned men to teach and preach the gospel. If we believe that God is capable of guiding some apostles to write inspired truth and to keep them from teaching error, and further guiding the future translators to remain true to the original message, then how is it that the same God cannot keep orally transmitted teachings from also remaining free of error, to the point that we are to accept only that which is written as binding and authoritative?

    @dddoo7 said:

    If your point is worth making then it should have come from the Bible and should have a scripture read to back it up and show that it is true. If it doesn't have a scripture to back it up...then it shouldn't be preached.

    Where does the Bible teach this?

    Again...I challenge you. If anyone here proves me wrong from the Bible on anything I teach I will change what I teach to match the Bible.

    The challenge is this, and Greg alluded to this: If the Bible is inspired by God and is therefore truth, why is it that there are 1000s of competing "truths" of doctrine. Difference in doctrine, is, after all, the main reason for the proliferation of religions today. From the passage you shared in 1Cor, it is clear that difference in doctrine (division) is unacceptable. So for people that are looking in on us from the outside wondering who preaches the truth, what are they to make of the Christian Gospel of salvation when one church says one thing, and another church says the exact opposite, and both claim that they get their doctrine from the Bible and they are all inspired by the Holy Spirit? How do we find the truth? Simple, truth, by it's very nature, doesn't change. I would argue that to know the truth of any Christian teaching, it would not only have to have "some" backing in scripture but it would have to have been taught, at least in seed form from the beginning (time of Christ & apostles), otherwise, wouldn't it be reasonable to question the "authenticity" of that teaching?

    In your reflection you ask the following:

    Wouldn’t religion be much simpler if all we had to know and follow was the Bible? Wouldn’t that lead to unity in the truth of His word?

    After looking at 1000s of competing theologies, which came about because someone thought that their pastor was not teaching "according to the Bible" and then decided to "go back to the Bible" and start their own church, it is obvious that that doesn't work. I think Saint Paul, who taught the Ephesians what I shared above, would disagree with the idea of "believe in the Bible only" as you state above. That doctrine, by the way, did not exist until the 16th century with Luther at the Diet of Worms.

    Here's where Saint Paul says the truth can be found:

    But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the CHURCH of the living God, the PILLAR AND FOUNDATION OF TRUTH. - 1Tim 3:15 (emphasis mine)

    Here's a relatable way to think about it: Where does Greg's authority on what he teaches regarding precision rifles and precision shooting come from? From him practicing (living) what he teaches every single day. In 50 years his experience and knowledge would further develop, but it would not fundamentally change, because the truth of what he knows and has learned and has lived every day, if it's truth, will not change. If you think about it, and again, it's an imperfect example, when Greg made the invite to the spring training, he pointed to some articles to read for a taste of what we would learn in May, following the same idea of "believe only what is written", why would we go spend a weekend learning from Greg when we can just go to what is written? Even if Greg had written 100 articles on the many aspects of precision rifles and precision shooting, does it mean that there is no truth we can learn from "going to church (spring training) and listening to the teaching?



  • @ramirojpc

    I appreciate your interest in these topics and willingness to discuss it. I really did not expect to run into anyone here who could discuss these matters at this deep of a level...and I am excited to discuss it. I have tried to discuss and answer every aspect of your post...but might have missed some. If I have I am not ignoring it...but simply missed it.

    You are correct in the fact that there are many, many books claiming to be inspired and from God. Yet once again as you know...claiming to be inspired does not make a book or writing inspired. Now...if there are two books claiming to be inspired by God...and they teach doctrines that disagree then either one or the other of the books is not truly inspired or they both are not inspired. It is not possible for something to be true and false IN THE SAME WAY AND CONTEXT. Therefore part of determining which writings are truly inspired and which are not is comparing those writings to the teachings of Christ. If the teachings of an apostle (or claimed inspired writer) disagree with the teachings of Christ then that apostle cannot be inspired.

    Galatians 1:8-9, “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. [9] As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”

    Now...a writing that is inspired must be true in every aspect. After all...an inspired teaching is from God and protected by God. Therefore if a writing contains a historical error or other such error it cannot be inspired because it is obviously not all truth. For example...a writing that discussed the Mississippi river and how it flowed from south to north during the civil war could not be true. A writing that contains ANY error such as this can easily be dismissed as false. Further...if any writer claiming to be inspired has an error or contradiction in ANY of their writings...then none of the writer’s works can be trusted as inspired. Therefore it is possible...through a thorough and diligent study to know which writings are inspired and which are false.

    Christ never did explicitly command that words be written down. Yet He commanded, as you said, that everything He had taught was to be continually taught.

    Matthew 28:20, “Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.”

    Would you not agree that recording the words of Christ in written form is an acceptable method of teaching? Christ commanded to “teach”...yet He did not specify the means. Teaching can be done through verbal means, through written word, by example, or through the internet (had they had access). You are correct in the fact that not all of the apostles used the written word as the method of teaching...yet they all taught. Now...one very interesting part of the above verse (Matthew 28:20) is the last phrase. Christ promises, “lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.” How did Christ carry out this promise made to the apostles? How is it that Christ would know that everything they taught was true? How could a person know what was right and what was not? Christ made provision for this.
    John 14:15-17, “If ye love me, keep my commandments. [16] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; [17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.”

    Christ promises to send them another comforter that would abide with them. This comforter would come from the father, would abide with them, and would dwell in them.
    A few verses later, John 14:25-26, “These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.[26] But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”

    Christ promised that a comforter would come. This comforter was the Holy Ghost (spirit), would be sent in the name of Christ, would teach them all things, would bring all things into remembrance that Christ had taught. Now...if the purpose of the spirit was to bring into remembrance (the teachings of Christ) AND to teach them all things...then there were still things that they needed to know and teach that Christ had not yet taught them. These things were to be taught to them by the Holy Ghost (spirit). Like you said...the Holy Spirit gave Christians many different gifts.

    Ephesians 4:11, “And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;”

    He then tells the purpose of those gifts.

    Ephesians 4:12, “For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:”

    And

    Ephesians 4:14, “That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; [15] But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:”

    The purpose of the gifts of the Holy Spirit was for perfecting (completing) the saints. For the work of the ministry, to keep them from being tossed about by every wind of doctrine (false doctrines), and so that through truth they would grow up in Christ in all things.

    He also tells them the time frame in which these gifts would be available.

    Ephesians 4:13, “Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:”
    These miraculous gifts of the spirit were there to confirm truth to people until unity of faith and knowledge of the son of God was available. Therefore the miraculous Holy Spirit (and inspiration) was never intended to be a continuous thing...but was to be in place at the beginning of the church to confirm truth until that truth was known. Today the Holy Spirit continues to guide us through inspiration through the written word.

    Consider 1 Corinthians 13:8-13, “Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. [9] For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. [10] But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. [11] When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. [12] For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. [13] And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.”

    Charity (love) doesn’t fail. Love will never end. Love will continue on through eternity. However...prophecies will fail. There will come a time when miraculous prophecy by the power of the Holy Spirit will end. Tongues will cease. The miraculous ability to speak in tongues (to confirm the word) would cease or come to an end. Knowledge (miraculous knowledge by the power of the Holy Spirit) would vanish away. Now...he says they know in part (miraculous knowledge) (verse 9) and the prophecy in part (miraculous prophecy). Yet when that which is perfect (complete) is come, then that which is in part will be done away. Christ at this point had already come to earth and taught the apostles. Yet He also taught that the comforter (holy spirit) would teach them more and he did so through these miraculous means. Yet there would come a time when these miraculous knowledge, prophecy, and tongues would be done away with. That is when that which is perfect (complete) is come. You are correct that we did not have the complete written word of God for many years...yet they had the miraculous gifts of the holy spirit to protect and confirm the word. We now have the complete written word of God and therefore have no need for the miraculous gifts.

    Did God protect truth through the beginning time of the church? Absolutely. He provided the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit to confirm His word which was spoken and recorded by the inspired men of God. Yet now that we have His complete truth in the written form there is no need for God to continue to “confirm” His word through miracles. God has always...in every age confirmed NEW teachings with miracles. He did so in the days of the Old Testament Prophets...and He did so in the beginning of the church. IF God was continuing to deliver inspired teachings today...then He would also of necessity need to confirm those new teachings with miracles....and not just things that people today call “miracles”...but truly undeniable miracles such as happened in Bible times. Things such as feeding the 5,000 (Matthew 14:16-21) or raising the dead (Acts 9:36-41). If I saw a true miracle today...I would believe the teachings of whoever did that miracle. I have a friend who is missing a finger due to a wood cutting / axe accident. The one who immediately heals his finger will have my full and undivided attention. I have another friend who died at 19 in a car accident. I will believe every word of the person who raises him from the dead. These miracles are not outside the reach of one who is truly inspired by God.

    When we realize that the word of God is the authority for Christianity then we will demand that preaching come from his word. Paul demanded no less of Timothy (a young preacher)...

    2 Timothy 4:2-4, “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. [3] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; [4] And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”

    Paul demanded that preaching come from the word. Peter taught that the word would endure forever...and then defined what that word was. It was the Gospel that was preached to them.

    1 Peter 1:25, “But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”

    Men today are not inspired of God. The age of miracles and therefore inspiration has ended. We have the complete word of God (1 Corinthians 13:8-13) therefore that which is in part (prophecy, miraculous knowledge, speaking in tongues) is done away. Therefore I cannot trust that which ANY man has to say...even if they claim to be from God. However...I don’t have to trust man when I have and can know His inspired word.

    Paul does say that truth can be found in the church...and it can...yet only when the church is based in and teaching truth. You quoted 1 Timothy 3:15 to confirm this...yet one must also consider the warning in the next few verses.

    1 Timothy 4:1-3, “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; [2] Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; [3] Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.”

    This warning is given just after they are told that truth is found in the church. Ok...which church? Today there are so many different churches and like you say...every time someone disagrees or doesn’t like something they start another one. Is it possible that some of these “churches” have departed from the faith? Is it possible that some of these “churches” at one time taught truth...but at some point they left truth? Is it possible that the human “leaders” are wrong? The only way to truly know right from wrong is to follow the word of God. The only way to know if a “church” has departed from the faith is to compare the teachings of that church to the known inspired teachings of the word. The church is the pillar and ground of truth...but only when that church refuses to depart from the faith by following the word of God.

    Jude 1:3, “Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. [4] For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”

    Once again Christians are commanded to earnestly contend for the faith (system of belief). This faith (system of belief) was ONCE delivered to the saints. It was delivered through the inspired teachers in New Testament times once and for all. He then warns of those who will try to change the truth and will teach other doctrines. The reality is...we might still be continuing to learn truth about shooting...but the word of God is delivered, complete, and unchanging (1 Peter 1:25).

    @ramirojpc

    I look forward to our continued studies in truth. We know that it is possible to know truth because Christ said, “and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” (John 8:32).



  • The interpretation of the truth, does not change the truth. With so many incorrect interpretations, it's easy to see how religion has served to subjugate mankind rather than free us.

    I want to be only kind to my fellow man. I've tried it before... truly. Do kind things and have no expectations in return. It has caused me to receive great pain and put those I love in danger, because people take advantage of such behavior in this world. Most people, if not all people under the right circumstances, are unworthy of trust.
    When I was young and naive to this fact, I had the skin of a teddy bear. Now, my skin is that of a dragon. With each passing day I feel my heart following suit. The people in this world are systematically killing my capacity for empathy. If I do not continue to harden, surely they'll kill my soul, because they are certainly trying.

    Since we seem to have two learned men of the cloth among us, I ask you: How am I not to be hardened in the face of constant persecution?



  • @orkan
    You are absolutely right...interpretation can never change truth. Truth is truth regardless of how I or anyone else interprets or applies it. It is also possible to improperly interpret truth to one's own demise. Whether it be due to preconceived idea's, incorrect traditions, or simply following a majority. Religion as a whole has damaged the truth more than preserving it. It is to the point where I can't trust what anyone has to say about religion because I don't know where they got what they are saying. Yet truth can be known if we are willing to spend the time studying with an open mind. The same is true in the shooting world too isn't it?

    Christ was persecuted by most people for teaching truth...and even denied and betrayed by those who followed Him. Yet He still taught the truth for the very few there were who were truly seeking truth.

    Paul was persecuted by most for teaching the truth...even beaten and stoned. Yet he still taught truth for the few there were who were truly seeking truth.

    While the vast majority of people are not worthy of one's trust...and that same vast majority will openly reject truth and persecute the messenger...the messenger is only truly defeated when he is no longer willing to carry the message of truth.

    Christ endured for the few that would believe Him. Paul endured for the few that would believe him. The only way I can see to keep the heart from hardening is to realize that there are a few...sometimes a very few...that listen to the truth you teach and learn from it. Where would those few be if you had not been willing to help? Is the success of those few worth the persecution of the majority? It has to be! The success of the few is the reason I preach. The success of the few has to be the reason you keep teaching people how to shoot.

    BTW-- I am very thankful to be one of the few who came to the realization that you know what you are talking about. My shooting (and equipment) has improved greatly over the last year and a half or so. I really look forward to learning more in May!



  • So you're saying, suck it up, and do what I do, regardless of persecution, basically.

    Then I guess the real question is, how do I stop being affected by those persecuting me?

    Example: I post in a forum and say "Tangent Theta optics are currently the best rifle scopes offered." In response someone types: "Fuck you Greg you're just a shill that doesn't know what he's talking about and will say anything to sell scopes."

    How do I not want to immediately smash that persons head with a rock?



  • @orkan

    Usually when people respond as such they do so because they have no credible logical response to your statement. The only way someone could legitimately rebut that statement is if they have extensive experience with most if not all high end optics currently offered...including TT. Although I own two TT's...I still cannot fully confirm that statement because I don't have experience with other high end scopes...I only know that the TT's you have sold me are absolutely excellent. Yet I bet the person responding above has not seen one in person...much less actually used one. Said person is probably just offended that you didn't affirm that their previous purchase was the best thing ever. A person who responds in said fashion is not going to care what you have to say...and any effort expended on them is going to be wasted. Anyone with common sense will see that their response is one of emotion and not logic and will dismiss it. In my opinion...a response as above would not even warrant a reply if it were me.

    However...it is often times difficult to ignore it when someone attacks my character.



  • And I might even "like" their post just to bug them even more. :)



  • @dddoo7 said:

    However...it is often times difficult to ignore it when someone attacks my character.

    Ignoring people while they mislead others.

    A skill I seem not to posses.



  • Dear Daniel, I am grateful that you are interested in discussing matters of faith in the pursuit of truth. I welcome the opportunity. I will attempt to address your response in the same manner you did mine, and I hope I do it justice. I will probably cut some parts of your response, not because I don't want to address them, but because I either agree with the entirety of the section or for brevity's sake, otherwise each of our subsequent responses will get unduly long and hard to read for others.

    @dddoo7 said:

    Therefore part of determining which writings are truly inspired and which are not is comparing those writings to the teachings of Christ. If the teachings of an apostle (or claimed inspired writer) disagree with the teachings of Christ then that apostle cannot be inspired.

    First of all, we need to define 2 things here: 1) Inspiration - in the biblical sense, this means that it was given by God (theopnustos; Greek for God breathed), not to be confused with inspiring, and 2) Apostles: only those who saw Christ in person and were "sent" by him are apostles (apostolos; Greek for "those who are sent")

    You are correct here, however, you don't go far enough. I am sure you are thinking this in terms of today, in which case we have a whole corpus of history, commentary, reflections, etc. But how would you compare, say, The Shepheard of Hermas, 1st Letter of Clement, and others, to the teaching of Christ in the year 250AD? Where would you go to find "the true teaching of Christ" to compare that writing to decide whether or not it lines up? After all, the Bible at this time, did not exist. Remember, truth does not change, so what was true back then in the 2nd or 3rd centuries, is also just as true today.

    Galatians 1:8-9, “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. [9] As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”

    Further...if any writer claiming to be inspired has an error or contradiction in ANY of their writings...then none of the writer’s works can be trusted as inspired. Therefore it is possible...through a thorough and diligent study to know which writings are inspired and which are false.

    No disagreement regarding how an inspired writing cannot have errors in it. However, I disagree with the 2nd sentence in your statement above, and at the same time, you betray an erroneous preconceived notion. If you say above that any writing must be in agreement with the "teaching of Christ", and in the statement above, you say that with diligent study one can know which writings are inspired and which are false. Your erroneous preconceived notion is that you assume that "the teaching of Christ is known" in it's entirety today, so much that people could determine which writings are "God breathed" and which are not. It took the Church a span of decades and several councils to arrive at which books, out of all that were in circulation at the time, were inspired and which were not. Take a look at the following 2 readings and tell me which one is inspired and which is not:

    Let us attend to what is good, pleasing, and acceptable in the sight of Him who formed us. Let us look stedfastly to the blood of Christ, and see how precious that blood is to God, which, having been shed for our salvation, has set the grace of repentance before the whole world.

    Perhaps this is why he was parted from you for a while, that you might have him back for ever, no longer as a slave but more than a slave, as a beloved brother, especially to me but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord. So if you consider me your partner, receive him as you would receive me. If he has wronged you at all, or owes you anything, charge that to my account.

    Can you tell which one of those 2 passages is inspired scripture and which is not? Be honest, don't look it up. Here's another outlandish question, none of the Gospel authors say they are the authors, so how do you know Matthew wrote the Gospel of Matthew, or that Luke wrote Luke?

    These things were to be taught to them by the Holy Ghost (spirit). Like you said...the Holy Spirit gave Christians many different gifts.
    ...
    He also tells them the time frame in which these gifts would be available.

    Ephesians 4:13, “Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:”
    These miraculous gifts of the spirit were there to confirm truth to people until unity of faith and knowledge of the son of God was available. Therefore the miraculous Holy Spirit (and inspiration) was never intended to be a continuous thing...but was to be in place at the beginning of the church to confirm truth until that truth was known. Today the Holy Spirit continues to guide us through inspiration through the written word.

    I don't think it's possible to say, at a time when there's a proliferation of competing religions that cannot agree even on something as basic as baptism, that Christians have attained unity of faith and knowledge in the son of God. You said, "Today the Holy Spirit continues to guide us through inspiration through the written word." If you really believe the Holy Spirit is God and guides people to the "correct" interpretation of the Word of God, then why is it that there are so many religions teaching doctrines completely opposite of one another. Take baptism for example, Mark 16:16 say this:

    He who believes and IS BAPTIZED will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

    So here Scripture clearly state that baptism is necessary for salvation. Is there unity in the doctrine of baptism among Protestants? Some say it's a sacrament, other say it's not, some say it's ok to baptize babies, other that it's not, some say you have to dunk the person, other say sprinkling is ok, some say it washes away original sin, other that it does nothing, some say that it covers the believer with grace, other say it doesn't. So again, how can someone looking from the outside at all of this, come to the conclusion that the Gospel of salvation is true?

    We now have the complete written word of God and therefore have no need for the miraculous gifts.

    I deleted all the section above except the line above because I have no disagreement with what you stated, except that last line. You haven't shown that we indeed have the complete word of God because as I stated before, bibles from different churches have different books and you have not proved which one Bible is complete and not the others, or the other have books which are not inspired. I also disagree that we no longer need miraculous gifts, this is a misunderstanding of grace. I can't go into that detail here, but suffice it to say that God grants sanctifying gifts or charismatic gifts as he needs for the benefit of his people.

    Did God protect truth through the beginning time of the church? Absolutely. He provided the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit to confirm His word which was spoken and recorded by the inspired men of God.

    I am sorry to say, but God did not protect truth by miraculous gifts. Christ, by "all authority in heaven and on earth" sent forth men with the guidance of the Holy Spirit to guide them to teach the message of salvation. If you believe Christ is God, then you must also believe that He would not create any useless thing:

    And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

    The binding and loosing are direct interpretations by Christ of the Prime Minister in the time of David the King (Is. 22:22). The binding and loosing are understood as the authority to teach truth and denounce error. Wasn't Christ a bit unreasonable asking the apostles to "make disciple of all nations" when he knew they couldn't even cover the known world at the time, let alone any nations in the future. Or did he:

    His office let another one take - Act 1:20 (concerning the replacement of Judas the betrayer)

    When Judas died, he left a vacant office that needed to be filled. When any of the other apostles died, they left vacant offices with specific ministries that needed to continue. The word in Greek for office is episkopos, which comes from the roots "epi" (over) and "skopeo" (seer; from where we get the word scope). So the office is that of overseer, or supervisor. Some bibles translate this word as bishopric. Then Saint Paul takes this even further:

    and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. - 2Tim 2:2

    So here Saint Paul establishes how the faith is to be passed on from generation to generation. There is no indication anywhere in scripture that either the ministry of the apostles or the succession is to end at any time. There is no indication whatsoever in scripture that after some time, the apostolic ministry would end, and people would need to go to the Bible alone. Again, you betray an erroneous preconceived notion that people had access to bibles to read. Well, before the advent of the printing press, in the 5th, 9th, 12th centuries, how would people be able to read a bible for themselves? First, they had to be educated, back then only 1 out of 10 people could read, and by those centuries if you could read, you could read Latin. After Gerome translated the original Hebrew & Greek scriptures into Latin in the late 4th century, that was the official translation that was read in the churches. Further, bibles were copied by hand, first on papyrus, then on velum. Velum was made from the skin of a sheep or goat and hundreds of them needed to be killed for the velum, then the skin processed, then the monks would take 3 years of their life to copy a bible. So who do you think could afford to have a bible and the resources to be educated enough to read it. Only kings, the most wealthy noblemen, and the church had bibles. So basing a religion on a book during the 1st 1.5 millennia of Christianity would have been a sure way to limit access to the gospel of salvation to as as few people as possible. And even if we grant that all people had access to a bible and all were educated enough to be able to read it, would they understand the true message of it? Remember the eunuch from Ethiopia, the story of which proves what I've been saying above, only the wealthy could afford copies of the sacred writings:

    And behold, an Ethiopian, a eunuch, a minister of Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of all her treasure, had come to Jerusalem to worship and was returning; seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah. And the Spirit said to Philip, “Go up and join this chariot.” So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” And he said, “How can I, unless some one guides me?

    So here is a very wealthy man, educated enough to to be able to read, and yet, he needs someone to guide him to understand. Why wasn't the Holy Spirit "inspiring" understanding for him? He was devout enough to leave his ministry, probably for months, and travel from Ethiopia to Jerusalem to worship. The reason is simple, when Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to guide the apostles, that is a specific number of people. Christ never said, "the councilor will blow and bless and give everyone understanding of all that I taught..." He told that passage specifically to the apostles, and to no one else.

    Yet now that we have His complete truth in the written form there is no need for God to continue to “confirm” His word through miracles.

    I am sorry to say Daniel, but this is simply your opinion, and an unproven one at that. Scripture and history itself show that clearly. Nowhere in scripture or in history until Luther in the 1500s, anyone ever claimed what you claim above. Beyond that, I think with my statements above, I have shown that if a mere fallible man can reason that basing the Christian religion on a book would have been a terrible idea, do you think Christ who is God, couldn't figure that out. The reality is that Christ established a church with no expiration date. He sent men with His authority to teach and make disciples of all nations, and through the laying on of hands the apostles commissioned other ministers (episkopos - bishops) to carry on their work throughout the world and throughout time.

    If I saw a true miracle today...I would believe the teachings of whoever did that miracle. I have a friend who is missing a finger due to a wood cutting / axe accident. The one who immediately heals his finger will have my full and undivided attention. I have another friend who died at 19 in a car accident. I will believe every word of the person who raises him from the dead. These miracles are not outside the reach of one who is truly inspired by God.

    I find this extremely dangerous. You do know that Satan can perform miracles too, right? Here's one example of something that is beyond one who is truly inspired by God, which still happens today: the exorcism of demons. Did you know that the Catholic Church has a rite of exorcism that some priests, who are called to that ministry, need to learn and be trained in? Every Catholic diocese in the world has at least 1 exorcist. One Protestant friend from work commented once, "I don't know what is scarier, that this stuff happens, or that it happens so often that the Catholic Church has a process for driving out demons."

    When we realize that the word of God is the authority for Christianity then we will demand that preaching come from his word. Paul demanded no less of Timothy (a young preacher)...

    I think I have shown with my examples above, especially with the Ethiopian eunuch, that that is not the case. Christ gave his authority to men, not a book. Let's look at the passages you use below...

    2 Timothy 4:2-4, “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. [3] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; [4] And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”

    Paul demanded that preaching come from the word. Peter taught that the word would endure forever...and then defined what that word was. It was the Gospel that was preached to them.

    1 Peter 1:25, “But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”

    In how you expound on both passages above, you again betray an unproven assumption, namely, that word in those passages means bible, it doesn't. You are actually proving my point, the Greek word there is "logos" and in most other cases is "reima" and both of those refer to a spoken word, not a written word. See below
    2gX7gTX.jpg

    But even further, if we grant that "word" in the passage to Timothy means scripture, then what was it that was considered scripture when Timothy was a young man? Only the OT, so if you want to prove that the word "word" means scripture, you prove too much, namely that Timothy should preach the OT, since Paul did not consider his own writings to be Scripture.

    However...I don’t have to trust man when I have and can know His inspired word.

    How do you know it's inspired? Earlier you said that not because a book says it's inspired, that it's then inspired, and you are correct, that is circular reasoning: the bible is inspired because the bible says so. So how do you know it's truly the inspired word of God? Seriously, I'd like to know how you arrived at this conclusion that the bible is God breathed.

    Paul does say that truth can be found in the church...and it can...yet only when the church is based in and teaching truth. You quoted 1 Timothy 3:15 to confirm this...yet one must also consider the warning in the next few verses.

    1 Timothy 4:1-3, “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; [2] Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; [3] Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.”

    I think you are trying to downplay that particular scripture. Paul did not say "that truth" can be found in the church, Paul is much more forceful, he says that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth. The subsequent passages could very well be applied to our own times with the proliferation of religions based on personal interpretation of the bible. That has not led to unity, but splintering upon splintering and division upon division.

    Is it possible that some of these “churches” at one time taught truth...but at some point they left truth? Is it possible that the human “leaders” are wrong?

    No it's not. If you believe that Christ indeed created A church, which he found in the apostles and has continued through the centuries until our own time, then no, it's no possible. Unless we make Christ a liar:

    And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. - Mt. 16:18

    If the church that Christ founded on Peter and the apostles at one time taught truth and then left truth, whether that was 10 years later, 100, or 1000, then the gates of Hades did prevailed against it, and therefore Christ lied, he is not God, and we Christians have been living a lie for 2 millennia.

    The only way to truly know right from wrong is to follow the word of God. The only way to know if a “church” has departed from the faith is to compare the teachings of that church to the known inspired teachings of the word. The church is the pillar and ground of truth...but only when that church refuses to depart from the faith by following the word of God.

    I am sorry, but this is simply wrong. The only way to know the true faith is to learn it from those to whom it was entrusted. Some wrote, most didn't, all went off into distant lands and preached the gospel, established churches, and left others in charge to continue the ministry. I would have been impossible to do what you suggest before the end of the 4th century when the 1st list of inspired writings was published at the Council of Hippo in 393AD. If you need some sort of complete set of inspired writings to then "test" the teachings of a church, then why is it that Christ did not say, anywhere, that the complete corpus of the Christian faith would be contained in a book. At least give a heads up to people that at some point there was going to be a sure manual for the Christian faith. That is not found anywhere in the NT accounts. The only reason this kind of thinking exists today is because of Luther. Sometimes, my Protestant brethren are not even aware that they are espousing these ideas that are only 400-500 years old.

    Jude 1:3, “Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. [4] For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”

    Once again Christians are commanded to earnestly contend for the faith (system of belief). This faith (system of belief) was ONCE delivered to the saints. ** It was delivered through the inspired teachers in New Testament times once and for all.** He then warns of those who will try to change the truth and will teach other doctrines. The reality is...we might still be continuing to learn truth about shooting...but the word of God is delivered, complete, and unchanging (1 Peter 1:25).

    I believe that scripture, as well as all of scripture, with all my heart, soul, and mind. I also believe that all of scripture is inspired, and only scripture is inspired by God and therefore inerrant. But I believe these things because the Church has taught me, through it's councils across 2 millenia, through the teachings and writings of the saints, and through the consistency of what scripture is and has been for over 1500 years. But tell me, how do you arrive at the conclusion that only the bible contains revealed truth? That only the bible is authoritative to teach the Christian of today what the gospel of salvation is? Again, I am seriously interested to know how you arrive here.

    In closing, I leave you with one thought. Christ cares for the unity of faith, so much so that before he went to his death, this is what was on his mind.

    I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory which you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. - Jn. 17:20-23

    Here Christ is praying for the apostles and those who would come to believe through their word that they may all be one and in the measure that we are one, then the world believes. But notice that his prayer is that we would be perfectly one the same way Christ and the Father are one. Today, with estimates as high as 40,000 Christian denominations worldwide, it's little wonder that we can't make headway in converting the rest of the world.

    Thank you for the opportunity to dialogue and discuss matters of faith. Hopefully we can continue to learn from each other in charity. Blessings.



  • @orkan said:

    Since we seem to have two learned men of the cloth among us, I ask you: How am I not to be hardened in the face of constant persecution?

    Mother Theresa said it best:
    mother-teresa-on-do-it-anyway.jpg



  • @orkan said:

    How do I not want to immediately smash that persons head with a rock?

    I know this may be hard to do, because you want people to know what you know and see what you see, but ignore them and move on. Some people just don't care to be helped. Like Daniel said, focus on the few that appreciate what you've got to give.

    Also, this is probably relatively hard to do but with patience and perseverance it can be done, believe that for the most part, most are good people that do bad things or make mistakes, sometimes stupid self inflicted mistakes, but the person is typically good, since we are created in the image and likeness of God.. Blessings.



  • I too have trouble with the absolutist view that "only" that which is written in the bible is truth. Couple simple reasons for this. The first is that I think such complex subjects as faith, distributed across such a wide range of times, can be and probably was influenced too much by man.

    The second is that before the concept of religion existed, the concept of right and wrong did exist. Babies and toddlers whom have not been instructed in any way at all about religion or the bible know right from wrong as well as many other concepts written about in the bible. Religion and the bible may have tried to reduce to text the guidelines by which right and wrong may be defined... but most certainly did not invent the mechanism by which right and wrong are known.

    I notice that reading the Bullets from the Bible daily, I'm helped to stay in the positive frame of mind I find desirable to me. Reminders, if nothing else at all. Just like when I consult one of my previously written articles if the specific micro details of something I once wrote are forgotten in this moment, but can be recalled intimately with the reading of tiny bits of the concept. I'm beginning to view the bible in the very same way. Though I imagine this is very personal, as the spirit in which the words are read can lead to wildly different interpretations. None of which, have bearing on what actually is.

    You all know I'm very much a "solution" kind of guy. I'm not so much interested in the problem itself, once it has been identified. The solution to it is always what gets my attention. In this instance, I don't really care if the bible is verbatim the exact correct words or not. I only care that the definition and correct interpretation of the words which are indeed there, can and do convince some people to lead better lives each day. That solution is undeniable. As a result I haven't any problem with ANY so-called religion so long as their core principles and behavior put them in a spirit of harmony with others and encourage constant betterment of self.



  • @ramirojpc

    I am enjoying our discussion and will gladly continue via email... but I feel as if it has outgrown the purpose of the discussions on these forums. I have pm'd you my email and hope to continue our discussion there.

    I am also looking forward to meeting you in May. I have respect for anyone who has spent the time that you have in a study of truth. They are few...and far between!



  • @orkan said:

    I too have trouble with the absolutist view that "only" that which is written in the bible is truth. Couple simple reasons for this. The first is that I think such complex subjects as faith, distributed across such a wide range of times, can be and probably was influenced too much by man.

    Actually, you are quiet correct, this is the called the development of doctrine.

    The second is that before the concept of religion existed, the concept of right and wrong did exist. Babies and toddlers whom have not been instructed in any way at all about religion or the bible know right from wrong as well as many other concepts written about in the bible. Religion and the bible may have tried to reduce to text the guidelines by which right and wrong may be defined... but most certainly did not invent the mechanism by which right and wrong are known.

    Again, you are correct. The reason is that God has written his law in our hearts, so there is no need to know the Christian faith to know that murder is evil, even the indigenous aborigines in Australia that have never heard of Christ would have the same "internal sense" that murder is wrong. It wasn't always this way though, a cursory look at history will show this, ie. Aztec sacrifices.

    I notice that reading the Bullets from the Bible daily, I'm helped to stay in the positive frame of mind I find desirable to me. Reminders, if nothing else at all. Just like when I consult one of my previously written articles if the specific micro details of something I once wrote are forgotten in this moment, but can be recalled intimately with the reading of tiny bits of the concept. I'm beginning to view the bible in the very same way. Though I imagine this is very personal, as the spirit in which the words are read can lead to wildly different interpretations. None of which, have bearing on what actually is.

    The only difference is that for Christians, discovering the true faith is paramount, not only to live a good moral life, but to attain salvation. Attaining salvation is the primary goal, but the fruit of encountering Christ is to turn our life around and live a life of virtue.



  • @dddoo7 said:

    @ramirojpc

    I am enjoying our discussion and will gladly continue via email... but I feel as if it has outgrown the purpose of the discussions on these forums. I have pm'd you my email and hope to continue our discussion there.

    I am also looking forward to meeting you in May. I have respect for anyone who has spent the time that you have in a study of truth. They are few...and far between!

    I agree with you. After I went back and looked at my reply, it was unduly long. Besides these types of deep level discussion can seriously confuse others. So it's best that we take it offline.

    For those that may have been reading our dialogue, please do not think that is all confusion. There is value in what each one of us believes about God and his word. I will have my bible with me and will be eagerly listening to Daniel on Sunday morning of spring training in May.



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  • @orkan Thats a great quote. As long as its failure with purpose, a lot can be learned from failure.


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