Thank all of you for your advise. I don't have any realtime behind a 22BR rifle but plan to spend a great deal of time with one in the near future along with reloading. What a venture from rimfire, but I look forward to the challenge and the adventure. Again, thank you!
Well I finally ran into some problems with the original "dirty" 6BR. For those that haven't been following along, this rifle has been one of two rifles which were the basis of an experiment I have been running on the behavior of barrels which are not cleaned. Load workups were done after 250-300 rounds had been fired on each, to get the bore heavily fouled and then get a very tuned node established... and then see how long it takes to come out of it.
I had 1530 rounds since it was last cleaned, and it pressured up bad, and quick. The barrel has just over 2500 rounds total now. I had 100 rounds loaded up all in the same batch, and pressure started about 30 rounds into it, so it presented a nice opportunity. In the name of science, I sacrificed a few pieces of brass to the cause. Once it pressured, I tried some things to make double sure it was the bore condition that was causing it and not some other variable. I had been able to run the same loads during the entire "fouled" condition of this barrel, so after about 300rnds to foul in, my loads have not needed to change across multiple bullet types.
When I say it started to pressure, I mean it was violently demolishing brass. From the onset of pressure on the left, to where it ended up when I stopped on the right. The things I do in the name of science... :rolleyes:
The following was done, with no positive effect:
Removed the suppressor.
Cleaned the chamber.
Cleaned the brake.
Seated bullets deeper 5 thousandths (making sure no cold weld)
Full inspection of bolt, trigger, and action components.
Pushed a dry patch down the barrel.
Rounds were fired after each step to check each variable independently. No change was observed, as pressure signs on the brass were equally high at each step. Final step was to clean the bore!
When it first started pressuring up, I put it on paper at 100yds and fired two 5-shot groups. The top group was first, then it started hitting pressure bad, and the second group is on the bottom. Obviously went fully haywire.
Here's a short video showing the bore condition at the time of cleaning, with roughly 1564 rounds since the previous cleaning.
I went at the barrel with wipe-out patch-out and accelerator, and after a few cycles with heavy brushing... I went to Flitz polish and used some aggressive pellets and viciously polished the bore. I could have kept at that for an hour and still not got it all the way clean I think.
Here's a video of where I ended up.
After cleaning I fired 5 rounds on steel, just to settle it in a bit. Then I fired a couple 5 shot groups at 100yds. First one was a bit wild... as I suspect the bore wasn't quite settled in yet. Second one started to look much better.
While I understand none of this will be a huge revelation... its still nice to have some quantifiable and observable results with a rifle that has had a good barrel log. The same load that has always run well in this rifle, ran well after I cleaned it up. At 2500rnds, the barrel is still performing acceptably. It's also noteworthy that the rifle went right back to its previous zero once cleaned. The remaining 20 rounds which were fired after cleaning, exhibited no adverse pressure. This Benchmark barrel has certainly exhibited some excellent stability. It will be interesting to see how it behaves going forward.
@rhyno said in Is this a timing issue:
it'll catch when the bolt is cycled. The bolt only has to move a very small, almost imperceptible amount back after unlock and it'll catch, you can hear it in click when it does it.
Then it sounds like you could benefit greatly from having that cocking piece worked to improve timing/function.
I changed phones and Shooter was easy to load on the new phone, AB Tactical requires contacting the AB tech guy Doc and getting info from him. Havent had time to go through the whole process yet so I've been using Shooter even though ABT is a superior product.
@tan_90 said in Check out Erik Cortina's itty bitty 1000yd 5-shot group!:
One observation -- note what his ES was. I am not going to derail the tread with my thoughts on it but I've seen the same thing in my testing and observed it on others testing as well :)
@rr2241tx said in Short Action caliber recommendation:
Staying with your 473 bolt face, 7mm-08 or 358 Winchester would open up some slightly different options. Both have a variety of projectile options and are easy to load for.
You've already got some flat shooting rounds, maybe going with a bigger pill might give you that something different you are looking for. X2 on the above.
@kingnothing said in Desert Tech SRS-A2:
I love my A1, but the shaved weight and m-lok handguard are tuggin at my shirt tails. Plus, I'm curious as to how noticeable their claimed increase to accuracy from how the barrel clamps in is.
Unfortunately, I'll be of no help to you here. I've been spending all my trigger time with meticulously crafted rugged and beautiful rifle-based works of art created by TS Customs.
@tscustoms thanks for the photo
Well since I'm getting two anyways I might just get one flat curve and one straight just to try out.
If I don't like the straight I can always sell it.
Thanks for the help guys.
@rhyno said in Basic Gear For Beginning Precision Shooters:
Jags for the patches. Parker hale style maybe? I've never really got the hang of them but I've got the other style stuck a few times. I spend the money and get the VFG pellets.
You are right. Jags will be necessary. The proshot rod comes with one jag. Proshot and Dewey both make good brass jags.
I bought some pellets, but don’t really care for them. I wrap a patch around an Old brush.
@orkan said in McMillan A6:
Why do they need to put that damn butthook on
I randomly came across this picture right after TS customs finished up my build on one!
No butt-hook-DOH! Don't know when it was released, but maybe on the next one. I wish Mcmillan would have had it listed on the website a little more clearly as an option.
The A10 looks like a nice option for the kiddo's too.
I did try off the tripod (RRS), it was digging down and sliding, back mostly, in the mud, similar to the bipod. And it looks like RRS also has claws and spikes, similar to Atlas.
Rear bag or pack does sound like it makes sense in some cases.
Ok, I think I will start by trying a set of claws on one Atlas and I have a commanche bag I can try under the forearm as well.
This week we are going from 4 up to 40 like over the next several days ... so thawing then freezing ... thawing then freezing ... slippery soup versus rock hard ...
I really like it.
No zero shift from stock to chassis, excellent cheek weld, rode rear bag really well. The grip is real comfortable and the stock has a thumb shelf machined in.
Action/barrel sits perfectly centered; I added a magpul m-lok for the Atlas.
Recoil felt more linear than the stock it was in.
I shot it with 2 different mags, a .308 AICS (used like a Bob sled for single shot) and a .223 Accurate mag (AICS). These required a slight mod to fit the Howa. Not sure if required for the other footprints.
The MDT .223 mags are BO, these should fit without modification.
I got to try this bi pod out this weekend for the first time. I'm not sure it deserves too bad of a rating as it has a couple of features worth noting. First I mounted it with the legs facing forward and shot from a portable bench with an owl ear bag for the rear rest. It did OK and seemed loose but my portable bench is rickety as heck. Don't ever build one and use folding saw horse legs get the banquet table legs, much better. For some reason I took it off and reversed it where the legs fold back under the stock. Maybe that's the correct way to mount one I always faced them forward. Easier to deploy the legs and just felt better at least on the Ruger 10-22 I had it on. To fold the legs back up I just take my thumb (left hand) and forefinger and squeeze the two buttons simultaneously and apply a little pressure with the palm of the same hand and when it releases fold them back. One handed operation. Of course to deploy the legs the locks don't have to be pressed just flip them forward and they will lock into place. I don't know if Magpul demonstrated this or not I do know they show using the legs folded up as a rest and that's another one of the features worth noting. On something short like the Ruger if they are folded back it gives you a flat rest and something to grab. I threw it up on top of a gate to get a rest and tried it on the shooting bar on my Polaris. It's a lot better than the rounded bottom of a stock, at least for me it is. Anyway, I got this thing dirt cheap and it's the model you have to use a 1/8 allen wrench to tighten the cross bolts that is a bummer. Would have been better for me if it was a lever type attachment.
6.5PRC takes its place beneath the 7LRM, so it would be different enough from the LRM and the 300 Norma to give you something else to play with. ... or you could go for a big 6.5, like a 26 nosler and really spit those 264 bullets out. Really fun for about 600-800rnds. Though I wouldn't call that an "every day shooter" by any stretch.
6.5PRC pretty much wins the day in the practicality department when considering a traditional action.
Interesting read with a lot of good information. Just happen to see an article that Barett is producing the MRAD in 300 PRC for military contracts.
Greg the following is why you are my go to guy when needing information on calibers and when adding to my DT platform.
"I'll be getting a barrel chambered up in 300 PRC just so I can do the testing myself"
@kansas said in Groups versus Dots:
Right, I understand the difference in what we are ultimately measuring, precision vs accuracy as you say. I am trying to figure out if we are measuring any different aspect of what WE are doing when shooting groups versus dots. Or if all the aspects of the skills which we contribute to both groups and dots are identical, but we are just measuring the results differently.
All of the aspects of the skills are identical. We measure the results identically as well, depending on the goal.
If doing load development, and confirming the load... a tight cluster of shots does not need to be centered on POA to have value. When doing load development, accuracy and precision are both required.
No matter what the goal, the aspects of the skills, as you put it... are all necessary and are the same. You must perform all fundamentals perfectly to cut tight groups. You must perform all the fundamentals perfectly to center those shots on POA. You are only ever firing one round at a time.
Shooting small groups is easier, because you don't have to move POA or come off the rifle in any way. Separate targets require movement and thus pushes the discipline of one-shot one-target.
This is not something that gets boiled down to a sentence, or any other "specific bounds" created by someone. Explaining something simply doesn't inherently mean in a short amount of space. It simply means to explain successfully in such as way the subject matter can be more easily understood by the person you're explaining it to.
Oversimplification can do just as much harm as over-complication. I shoot groups on dot drills all the time. I shoot dot drills on dots all the time. The dot drill itself does not determine how the drill is to be used. The individual doing the training decides how it's to be used, and as long as their training technique remains true to form and they use the requisite correct method in measuring their results... then it has value.
Truly doesn't matter if you find the reason for it failing or not... because even if you fix it, it'll just be something else that breaks next time.
Rifle brands don't get a reputation like that unless it's earned.
Another thing to think about is the versatility of a 6mm. You can use those same 87's on coyotes with great success, or you can drop down to 55gr noslers and whiz them out at around 4000fps for some real fireworks. Those are full length barrel numbers obviously, but I'd expect some blistering speeds with 55's even out of a short barrel. 3500 to 3700'ish fps would be my guess. In short ranges, they'd be like a lightning strike on coyotes. I wouldn't like them beyond 200yds however ... but to 150 you'd watch the fur fly.
Heck even my little 16" 6BR hit 3200fps with them very easily.
Once I decide on the kind of bullet performance I'm after, and find success with my choice... I don't hop around at all. Unless I don't really care about that rifle's role and its for the sake of science. Additional variables breeds instability, no matter the variable.
Ok, I had a chance to do some more work with the 7LRM.
Before I get into the nittty gritty I just need to restate that Travis is a genius. This rifle shoots like a laser beam. If I do my part the rifle will put 180 VLD's into a group under a quarter inch with ease.
To work on this concentricity issue I took 30 pieces of brass, left ten of them unturned, turned ten of them down to .015 and the last ten down to .0145.
The .015 gives me about 50% of the neck turned and the .0145 gives me about 90% of the neck turned. I'm unwilling to go much further than this due to brass life concerns.
Loaded them all with the same 70.5gr H1000/180VLD load and shot them for groups. (While its unrelated, I got the best result with the unturned brass. I suspect I'm the limiting factor here because the .0145 groups were the next best.)
Took them home and checked them for concentricity. Out of the chamber the unturned brass gives me the best result, about 1.5 thou eccentric. The two neck turned batches give me about 2 thou eccentricity. (again not sure why this is the case, it seems counter-intuitive to me)
After sizing, I had introduced runout up to the 2.5 to 3 thou range. This leads me to suspect the die itself being the culprit because of the 30 pieces I never was able to get a piece of brass to have less than 2.5 thou TIR.
The only other thing I could see it being at this point is a matter of me oversizing, because the brass comes out of the chamber around .319-.320, gets sized down by the die .309 and then takes the bullet about .311. However it seems to me that random chance would give me at least a single piece of brass in that 0-1 thou runout range were this the case.
As always, I'd appreciate some input and guidance. Unless anyone can think of something else to try I think I'm going to give Whidden a call tomorrow and see what he has to say about getting the die checked and replaced.
I bought a 700 Adl .223 Remington from a pawn shop years back and completely restored it. It had been used pretty hard but no rust just lots of bluing gone and a faded stock. Before I started the restoration I tried shooting it and it was a single shot only, just wouldn't feed at all. I took it to a gunsmith buddy (seems we all have one) and he found the problem in about ten seconds. The .222 stamp on the barrel was x'd out and re stamped .223. I never noticed it but a new follower fixed it right away. My old friend that had a full time bluing shop did a real fine bead blast on the barrel and receiver and hot blued it and re coated the trigger guard and butt plate just like the original. The stock got a full makeover with an oil finish, I even sharpened up the checkering with a scraper I made and glass bedded it. Like a fool I traded it, end of story. :( frown
On a side note: There's a hurricane in the gulf, we have been in the 90's with a heat index of 100 most of last week and next Tuesday the high is supposed to be only in the 60's. That will be a shock. Raymondville, man I haven't been out that way in years. My mom and dad lived on the Kleberg when it was part of the King Ranch before I was born and he talked about that area a lot.
@twitch I was able to shoot 2 groups of 2, that were 1/2” groups, but 4” apart lol. That was at 100yds. Other groups were around 3”. Definitely a minute of deer gun. I probably wouldn’t shoot further than 300yds max with this gun if I can get the groups down to 1 1/2 MOA.
I need to think about the great points you brought up, so that we can proceed. I thank you for setting me straight regarding what makes sense for these lighter caliber firearms and parameters that need to be considered before proceeding . I'll think about those things and get back to you.
As far as the weight issue, I had surgery on my right arm. My strength in that arm is about 30-40 percent of what is was before the injury that required the surgery to correct.
Many thanks for your thoughtful response to my question.
Was just out shooting pdogs. End of the town was 450yds away, and you could really tell the difference between shooter and AB on those 300yd+ pdogs. A tenth of a mil off equals a miss. When bouncing back and forth between AB and Shooter, it was clear which one would give you more hits if you just went by the numbers shown and didn't apply your own "correction."
@orkan said in DT Bolt Knobs?:
@martino1 I find the factory knob to be of the correct size, and of the correct location. I've not had a need of an aftermarket knob on the newer chassis. The original tear drop design wasn't nearly as good as the current round knob.
Good enough for me, Thanks
@orkan I have some Barts 68gr flatbase I shoot with a 14 twist. That gun makes little holes. I would be interested to see what they did in that 7.75 twist. so when re-barrel time comes I have some options.
825rnds since last cleaned. I always load up about 10-15 rounds and go test fire them before I dedicate a load session. If there's anything going haywire with the brass or components... or the there's a massive shift in load... I can catch it before expending a ton of time and components.
Two 5-shot groups and two singles. Yup, everything's working great... so it's off to sit in front of the Prometheus for a while. At an average load rate of 10rnds every 2 minutes... this won't take long to dump 34gr of H4350 and cap them off with 105's.
@orkan said in Carlos Hathcock method of sighting in a rifle:
I would also like to add a huge point of contention with the above text.
The concept of showing up each day with a CLEAN bore, is something I disagree with more strongly than I can put into words. If you only need one shot, then it has merit. However... WHAT IF you need more shots?!?!?!
I once absolutely embarrassed a LEO sharpshooter in front of his teamates when we were discussing the truth of the clean rifle. He hit his first shot square, as I did. After that, I trounced him in the extreme. He even had a shot plot and was dialing his rifle in between all of his subsequent shots. However, I was able to maintain 1/3 moa for 20 shots. The sum total of his shots spread across 1.7 MOA.
I have witnessed rifles that would drift from their clean bore impact approximately 1 mil or 3.6" at 100yds during the first 10 rounds of fire. This is typically significantly lower among excellent barrels and rifles built by great smiths. Commonly a half a mil of clean bore shift in those instances. However... once the shift has settled and the bore is fouled in... that rifle will maintain its POI for no fewer than 200 rounds in most quality rifles. That means if you are a combat sniper... you can stay in the fight with 100% true POI for a massive number of shots in comparison to the "you only need one" type of guy. It is also noteworthy that the group size of clean first shots, if overlayed and compared to shots fired from a fouled bore... are typically significantly larger in size than the groups fired by a fouled bore.
This is evidenced by the hundreds of rounds I've displayed in the past year with the various "dirty barrel" experiments conducted here.
Sometimes long held beliefs do not go quietly in the night until facts smack one upside the head. A little guilty of that myself.. no so much anymore..